I'm stumped on dodgers and enclosures...

[Indecenseas]

So we are happily sailboat shopping, been looking for about a year and starting to narrow in on a few vessels as top contenders for our wishes.

But what I want to hear from the community is your thoughts on dodgers and enclosures for crossings and full time cruising. Hard, canvass, complete, partial, frankenstein, etc.

We are a couple in our prime about to start a family and outfit a sailboat in the 50' range for cruising. Almost exclusively looking at center cockpits. We have a lifetime of boating experience and plenty of sailing skills to refine and build upon before departing on our journey...we will get some professional coaching on both small and large monohulls just to make sure we are aware of our limitations...but we have not sailed too much in snotty weather or made any major ocean crossings.

So, here's a quick example of what we are looking at.
1) Amel 54/55 with hard dodger or hard top that can both have your typical canvass enclosure added.

2) Oyster 56, with single helm that is more easily enclosed as I understand it, than their newer models.

3) Oyster 575, with dual helm and a bit of a dodger and extended canvas top being more common to a full enclosure.

4) Hallberg-Rassy, we've all seen the elusive hard top that can be added onto with a nice custom canvas.

So, thats sort of the context of things we are looking at, and we've only ever had to put on slicks as we sort of head back and turn in for the day. I have been out in a full enclosure on a 40 footer and with easy gusts and light rain it was sufficient to just be in a sweater even with a smidge of runoff coming into the cockpit. This is great for those newer sailors and friends who come to crew in hopes of comfort.

What about when you're halfway across during a major crossing and that full enclosure rips off prematurely due to poor design? Thats a constant concern of mine as I've been looking at boats.

Would it be miserable to make somewhat regular crossings in an Oyster 575 with those fancy dual helms? Not really my first pick but there are two near us for sale...

Would something like an Amel 55 become just stupid boring after a while without being out in the wind and spray ever?

What about many of our friends on multi-hulls. I see some of you higher up, and some of you much closer to the water than a typical 50' monohull CC. Any thoughts or preferences?

If you have some first hand experience with long term live-aboard sailing and/or ocean crossing and would like to provide some tips I'm all for it. Please share where you sailed, what conditions you were in, how the vessel was equipped what experience you ended up having because of it.

Thanks!

[Chotu]

The boat is on auto pilot for the long crossings. So don’t even worry about that.

Carry a spare pump or drive mechanism for that auto pilot.

Personally, I like the hard enclosures. Hard dodger and top. With some isinglass around the sides and the back.

It’s also really nice to get some screens made up for when you are at anchor.

This part, I think you are over thinking. I mean, yes. Definitely get the protection from the environment. It’s rough out there standing in the rain and beating down sun. If you don’t have to do it, it will make it more enjoyable. More comfortable.

And of course the hard top is far more durable. And easier to put solar on if necessary.

[Zanshin]

Where are you sailing off to? If your destination is the tropics or the Caribbean, a dodger and bimini are important and should be as big as possible as most of your time will be spent in the cockpit and you wish to remain out of the direct sunlight. A quality bimini takes about 10-15 to stow properly for an approaching storm at sea. Although I've done the USA-Caribbean trip twice with both the dodger and bimini fully raised.

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by Chotu

The boat is on auto pilot for the long crossings. So don’t even worry about that.

Carry a spare pump or drive mechanism for that auto pilot.

Personally, I like the hard enclosures. Hard dodger and top. With some isinglass around the sides and the back.

It’s also really nice to get some screens made up for when you are at anchor.

This part, I think you are over thinking. I mean, yes. Definitely get the protection from the environment. It’s rough out there standing in the rain and beating down sun. If you don’t have to do it, it will make it more enjoyable. More comfortable.

And of course the hard top is far more durable. And easier to put solar on if necessary.

haha yea I'm guilty of overthinking for sure.

But I didn't even think about solar yet, so thats a good point.

Honestly my favorite thing you mentioned was having screens added!! I've never thought of that but mosquitos and biting flies drive me so insane that actually I could see that being a must have for me... which would mean like a completely connected enclosure...hmmmm, back to overthinking and going to take a look at a couple boats that most likely won't work.

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

Where are you sailing off to? If your destination is the tropics or the Caribbean, a dodger and bimini are important and should be as big as possible as most of your time will be spent in the cockpit and you wish to remain out of the direct sunlight. A quality bimini takes about 10-15 to stow properly for an approaching storm at sea. Although I've done the USA-Caribbean trip twice with both the dodger and bimini fully raised.

Good word. Both of us are prone to sunburn ha! We are going to sail South from here in the pacific toward Costa Rica and then make our way to the South Pacific. We've plotted our route that far based on what we want to do but I don't think either of us knows what we wanna do past that.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Indecenseas

haha yea I'm guilty of overthinking for sure.

But I didn't even think about solar yet, so thats a good point.

Honestly my favorite thing you mentioned was having screens added!! I've never thought of that but mosquitos and biting flies drive me so insane that actually I could see that being a must have for me... which would mean like a completely connected enclosure...hmmmm, back to overthinking and going to take a look at a couple boats that most likely won't work.

Yes. It’s actually wonderful to be outside in a center cockpit boat completely enclosed with screens. I used to have one like that. Actually I’ve had two of them like that.

Also, when you put the plastic ones on, it acts like a greenhouse. On the chilliest day you stay nice and warm in there.

I would say these are extremely important to your comfort. But do remember you won’t be stuck at the helm all the time if you are making any kind of passages. You will be up there for watch, but you won’t be sitting there steering and stuck to the helm.

And no worries. I overthink things all the time. That’s how I recognized it. Ha ha

[Zanshin]

Originally Posted by Indecenseas

...Honestly my favorite thing you mentioned was having screens added!!...

I have screens for all my hatches. In 15 years of cruising the Caribbean islands for 6+ months per year I've never used any of them. Ever.

When anchored no mozzies make it to the boat. When at a dock I have all the hatches closed and use the air conditioning.

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Did it ever occur to you that if you don't know which dodger or enclosure you need, that it just might not be the time to buy your dream boat yet?

I've seen folks on here spend close to $100,000 fixing up a boat that a more experienced sailor could redo for like $10,000

Just something to consider...

Well I'm asking about matters of comfort and preference while I have the time to get custom upgrades or enclosures done more easily here in the states...if you read the previous comments in the feed you'll see two different ways of going about it, both work for each sailor. & both offered me something useful to consider when looking at boats, while keeping in mind our needs and situation.

You can boil it down however you wish but it shows your assumptions. I've sailed for fun all my life and worked on the sea in the Navy and I've learned a great deal...Including, If I'm going to spend even more time on the water, I want to be comfortable on watch. I'm perfectly content to purchase my dream yacht prior to having crossed oceans via sailboat and if I'm dropping somewhere in the neighborhood of $750k-$1m+ I really won't be too worried about whether or not my preferences or experience are sufficient for you.

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by Chotu

do remember you won’t be stuck at the helm all the time if you are making any kind of passages. You will be up there for watch, but you won’t be sitting there steering and stuck to the helm.

For sure, It's definitely important for me to have that auto pilot backup you mentioned as well. The Amel 55 I believe comes with a second unit ready to go in the event of a failure, you simply unhook one and hook the other up. kinda slick, if it works how intended.

One thing thats a must have for me is a skeg hung rudder and the steering column and rudder coming through in a watertight bulkhead, i.e. the rear stowage compartment with only deck hatch access...but thats off topic haha.

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

I have screens for all my hatches. In 15 years of cruising the Caribbean islands for 6+ months per year I've never used any of them. Ever.

When anchored no mozzies make it to the boat. When at a dock I have all the hatches closed and use the air conditioning.

I think so far we intend to mostly avoid marinas and island hop for surfing...which means mostly rocky & rolly anchorages near shore unfortunately haha.

[SailingHarmonie]

We have an alternative view.

Our Amel is laid ouy differently. The week is bulkhead mounted at the FRONT of the cockpit. There is a hard "dodger", actually more of a windshield, a lot like your would see on a Hallberg Rassy. Then an extension canvas dodger after that. The helm station is completely out of the weather. We forget where we stowed our foul weather gear.

We DESPISE the full cockpit enclosures that seem to have become so popular. They are hot and miserable in the sun. They make it a total pain to sail the boat, getting in and out of the cockpit takes the flexibility of an olympic gymnast. To our way of thinking, if you wanted a pilothouse boat you should have bought a pilothouse boat!

Probably 30% of the time we are underway we actually fold down our dodger to enjoy the breeze, or watch the stars. If its cloudy or night our dodger is probably folded down. Our dodger folds down in 30 seconds, and goes back up just as fast. We consider it one of the great features of the boat.

Do whatever you think best for YOU, but be aware there are people out there who do not subscribe to the current orthodoxy in cockpit enclosures.

[sailingharry]

Driving. You won't. We are coastal cruisers, in port (anchor/marina) every night. 7000 miles in the last two years. 95% on autopilot. Even in channels/harbors/etc, the autopilot frees me to put my head on a swivel. Looking at marks, boats, chart, etc. Sure, I'm at the helm, and the "off" button is 0.5 seconds away, but auto is driving. Probably a holdover from my navy days, the helmsman is a sailor following my orders, I am freed up to digest the situation and give those orders.

We have a soft bimini that almost never is folded. We've seen winds to 60+, no issues. We have full eisenglass/screen enclosures that rarely are used.

But our dodger rocks It is a hard top. About 2 feet front to back, 6 feet side to side, slight curve on top. It sits on four posts. It has a total of 5 panels that zip in to make a full dodger. Mostly we don't put in any, but in the Canadian maritimes, we put in all but the front center -- it cut some of the wind/cold, but still allowed forward visibility.

90% of the time, it's bimini, dodger (top only) and zip in connector strip. Full sun protection, full visibility, full access, full ventilation.

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

90% of the time, it's bimini, dodger (top only) and zip in connector strip. Full sun protection, full visibility, full access, full ventilation.

Ah shoootz, another great idea that we haven't had or used on any of our fishing or sailing boats. A connector strip that can stay in and is likely easy and cheap to replace or purchase extras of, ahead of time, to account for sun damage!

Good word!! I think we've only had the slide in kind, that zip together and have roll up/zip shut windows...

[Kd9truck]

Love the selection, they are all worthy, I have crewed on the single Helmed Oyster 56 several times and would give it rave reviews in its palagic worthiness. I had an insightful discussion about the Amel with a friend, he said the one down side he found was that the Amel is a beautiful well designed vessel. The one down side is that (now this is just the opinion of a friend who has done some circumnavigation) Amels are French and all that is in them is French, so some things can be hard to source away from France.
On the hardtop softop topic, I have looked into constructing a hard top, for my vessel a coastal cruiser. I have constructed a Bimini and soft dodger as well as many other sunbrella cushions and covers. Sunbrella is a very good canvas option, the soft dodger and Bimini have experienced winds of 50 knots sustained, certainly more wind than I would purposefully put myself and vessel in. That being said I am still very interested in constructing a hard dodger fitted to my vessel. Which is not as good as a true hard dodger integral with the cabin top.
Our soft Bimini can be dropped in 20 min single handed. It spans the entirety of our cockpit and push pit. An 11x11 ft space and is pacific blue (dark) yet harbors no heat below and gives great reprieve from the heat of direct Sun exposure while letting the wind keep the shaded surfaces cool. With the dodger down or with the windows removed from the dodger it is a 360° view from the cockpit and all breezes are unrestricted.
If I had intentions on cruising full time and visiting colder climates I would probably be in the market for a true “pilot house” vessel.
I will note, just my opinion, all the vessels you listed, they are not vessels suited to “day sailing” they are automated passage makers, there is not a lot of manual finesse in sail trim, anchoring, de powering sail plan. These are NOT novice friendly appliances, I have worked extensively with hydraulics in and around Emergency Service operations and have seen quite a bit of un-intentional destruction. I have to say it because I have seen it happen many times with experienced operators. Power is great, but imho there should be a truly functional manual option for sail furlers, and anchor rollers.
On your list I would choose the 57 I have and like twin helms and it also puts the helms a touch further back which I like.
Cheers

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

To our way of thinking, if you wanted a pilothouse boat you should have bought a pilothouse boat!

Probably 30% of the time we are underway we actually fold down our dodger to enjoy the breeze, or watch the stars. If its cloudy or night our dodger is probably folded down. Our dodger folds down in 30 seconds, and goes back up just as fast. We consider it one of the great features of the boat.

Do whatever you think best for YOU, but be aware there are people out there who do not subscribe to the current orthodoxy in cockpit enclosures.

Well I can confidently say we don't want a pilot house but we do live in a climate where having the isinglass enclosure adding some warmth is nice. We had that on our last boat. But it is REALLY hot when ya don't want it to be and we actually didn't have a good way of taking it down or putting it up efficiently. Some really good ideas have been suggesting on this thread and I think on the next boat we will spend the money to custom have ours configured for easy setup and take down as well as have a screen option, as opposed to only isinglass.