Inboard engines and a changing world

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

So if you include Nuclear energy production the total was closer to 82% renewable in 2017.

It's certainly lower emission, but nuclear doesn't count as renewable.

It seems the known reserves of uranium could run out in 100 to 200 years. Improved efficiency, use of other radioactive resources (eg thorium), reprocessing of spent fuel could extend this.

[roland stockham]

It would not be good to get into an argument about who has the best data and I am never sure how reliable statistic published on the internet are. I got my numbers from a set of graphs published on Youtube and now you have challenged them I realise I was guilty of passing them on without fully verifying the sources of the data.
So here are some numbers that I grabbed quickly from WIKI for top performers in renewable electricity generation from all countries.

Albainia, Iceland, Paraguay, 100%
Namibia, Costa Rica, Tajikistan, Norway, Uruguay, Zambia, Etiopia, Kenya, 90 - 100%
I think it gives an idea of what can be done.


These are reliable and based on 2017 stats. One of the problems with data is that when things are move as fast as current trends by the time stats are collected and published things have change radically. For example China doubled its output from solar PV between 2016 and 2018
The point I was trying to make but possibly did not get over to well was that despite all the gloom and doom progress is being made and things are changing very fast in some places. The post topic is about the future of ICE for cruising boats and whether they are going to be redundunt at some point. I was trying to illustrate that things are moving so fast in so many different directions that it is an impossible question to answer. At the same time suggesting that a combination of energy saving methods and developing tech could make thing feasible that are currently seen as not worth it. All electric sailboat could be one of them.
I do think we should consider use more. When I started sailing most cruising boats had a single battery that started the engine and ran the nav lights. Heavy consumption was 25a/hrs per day. Enginses where typicaly 2hp/ ton and very much auxillary to the sails, nobody expected to get hull speed under engine even in aflat calm. As a rule fuel tanks wher 10-15gal and would last a full season between fill ups. Now people ask " how can I run the A/C on solar. Maybe a big part of the problem is people expecting unlimited water, A/C, multiple electronic devices fridges and freezer etc. People sailed the world without any of these a few years ago and mabey they will be doing again in the not distant future I am not sure all this stuff has made sailing more fun or just added stress worrying about maintaining it all.

One of the depressing stats I saw recently is that world wide we still spend about 3 times as much on fossil fuel subsidies than on renewables.

[DeepFrz]

One of the depressing stats I saw recently is that world wide we still spend about 3 times as much on fossil fuel subsidies than on renewables.

Yes, that is depressing and the fossil industry lobbyists have descended in droves on Ottawa to meet with government ministers before the opening of parliament. However, on the brighter side, Tesla, PetroCan and Canadian Tire have started actual construction of high power charging stations along the TCH. It should soon be convenient to travel by EV across the country.

I would love to have the chance to install an up to date, state of the art electric propulsion system on a boat. I really think the advancements in technology have made this feasible for many applications. Perhaps with a small diesel generator in reserve to cover emergency situations.

[daletournier]

I'm not sure what I'm missing here , electric motors and batteries are far from being new technology, very old in fact and advancements in both have been very small, they are basically the same as they were 50 years ago. Even Lithium isnt particularly new.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

One of the depressing stats I saw recently is that world wide we still spend about 3 times as much on fossil fuel subsidies than on renewables.

except that's not really the truth is it .

https://www.insidesources.com/us-sti...rly-7-billion/

Subsidies for renewable energy totaled $6.682 billion, while those for fossil energy totaled a mere $489 million

I know this is just for the USA but we are statistically blamed as being the biggest subsidiary of the fossil fuel energy.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I'm not sure what I'm missing here , electric motors and batteries are far from being new technology, very old in fact and advancements in both have been very small, they are basically the same as they were 50 years ago. Even Lithium isnt particularly new.

there actually have been good strides wrt lithium tech in the last 5 years alone . The biggest is in safety. The smallest ( and IMO most needed ) the advances in energy density.

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by newhaul

except that's not really the truth is it .

https://www.insidesources.com/us-sti...rly-7-billion/

Subsidies for renewable energy totaled $6.682 billion, while those for fossil energy totaled a mere $489 million

I know this is just for the USA but we are statistically blamed as being the biggest subsidiary of the fossil fuel energy.

I find it difficult to believe those numbers as Canada alone with a much smaller economy subsidizes the fossil fuel industry more than $3 billion a year. That is a conservative number and they are lobbying for much more.

How do you think the US has been able to maintain the lowest fuel prices in, probably, the world. I've included links to several sites that have researched the problem. Perhaps you could do the same.

https://www.iisd.org/faq/unpacking-c...uel-subsidies/
https://environmentaldefence.ca/repo...uel-subsidies/

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by newhaul

except that's not really the truth is it .

https://www.insidesources.com/us-sti...rly-7-billion/

Subsidies for renewable energy totaled $6.682 billion, while those for fossil energy totaled a mere $489 million

I know this is just for the USA but we are statistically blamed as being the biggest subsidiary of the fossil fuel energy.

Yep proves the old saying about lies, dam lies and statistics. It all depends on your definition of subsidy. The 3x I quoted came from the UN for globa totals and counted everthing from corperate tax breaks to cleanup costs. $489 million is less than some estimated cleanup costs the gov is on the hook for in Alberta just for deralict well sites. The estimated cost for the now publicly owned trans mountain pipeline is over 5 billion. Canada is currently building the site C dam at over 10 billion to provide water and power to the tar sands and fracking industry. These are all subsidies and without them the Canadian oil and gas industry would likely collapse. There are less direct subsidies as well such as the coast of roads being publicly funded but very intesive fossil fuel users while much mor efficient rail services have to fund much of the cost for track. It is counted as a subsidy if public transport get money for infrastructure but not when it goes to track for oil burning cars. In the end this come down to political choice and whether we get enough public support behind the climate crisis to force sufficent change on the substantial interests that support the old tech. My bet is that unless non-fossil fuel systems are made cheaper than fossil fuel one we won't make the change but will rather see a caotic end to the current world order, war, plauge, famin all that stuff.

What I guarentee we won't see in life carrying on as normal for the next 50 years or even the next 15.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by mpkoontz

I "love" to hear of all the problems electric drives will solve for us (regarding diesels). But I have to admit, I'm a little leary...

I thought diesels were [partly] used in boats, in the old days, because they could run without electrics (electronics). Remember when you had kerosene lamps and candles? Is everybody out there comfortable putting in all this "dependency" on wires and connections (that don't like salty air)? Dependency, not luxury. What happens when you take on enough water to cover your floor? Is your locomotion, cooking, heating all lost?

I'm just asking, because I love the idea of getting away from diesel maintenance, counting hrs, and fuel (tank) problems. But I "wonder" if my fears are just mine (or not)?

I think this way too, but then you have to recall all the electronics on any new boat.

Submerged modern diesel isn't going to work again.
Submerged propane solenoid for propane cooking isn't going to work again, not will the switch. Nor will the 12v system to power the solenoid.
Submerged anything is just toast in modern times.
Submerged Espar or Webasto isn't working again.

A good case for a good sailing boat, really.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I am not getting into the philosophical debate going on. All I know is it's coming. Fast.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5Aj_Hhn...d=dzcf5am0w175

Ford Mustang. Electric. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Classic American muscle car redeveloped as an electric too.

So what about boats?

I have outboatds so I'm ready for the coming change. They should be getting old just about the time I have to look at different power sources.

But what about systems? A good idea to go all electric now so as to not have to change them all out once LPG isn't readily available?

Well, just to begin with, it’s not a Mustang. I won’t argue that a Mustang isn’t a classic muscle car, it’s a pony car, but that irrelevant, because this is an SUV, not a Mustang, and I assume the electric F-150 will soon follow.
Both may cause more green house gas emissions than an efficient gasoline hybrid would.
But SUV’s and Pickups will sell, and that’s what’s important if your a manufacturer.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I don't treat this as a philosophical debate Chotu. I've taken the question to be a practical one based on the capacity of the technology now, and into the foreseeable future. It's already perfectly possible to use an electric auxiliary engine with a sailboat. What isn't very easily possible is to do so independent of shore power or some form of ICE generation.

The trends are all looking positive in that batteries and solar collection keeps getting better. But the point I made, looking at my own situation as someone who cruises slightly off the beaten path in a modest cruising-level boat, is that these technologies need to improve by around two magnitudes. So far we've seen continual linear improvement, which is great. But at this rate it's going to be a long time before the technology achieves the levels needed.

For boats that don't go far, or that don't venture away from first-world infrastructure (much like most Mustang's ), electric propulsion is already viable. If you're willing to be more of a pure sailor, then it's already viable. But if you're looking to replicate how most distance cruisers use their engines now, I say electric looks less viable now, and into the foreseeable future.

You and I aren't talking any distance apart at all. We're saying the same thing.

A boat independent of land.

Other than HVAC, this is absolutely possible on electric only powered by solar. I have enough space for 2.8KW of solar on my cabin top. Half of that would do just fine to power refrigerator/freezer, autopilot, microwave, induction cooktop, electric hot water.

You simply can't do good quality HVAC on solar alone so a generator is required for that.

I have outboards already. Those are modular engines you can replace with whatever the flavor of the decade is, so I'm covered there.

Finally, a good sailing boat is the most important of all, so the engine doesn't need to be used as much.

We are actually talking about the same thing. I'm just looking toward the future with an eye on what's trending with power/energy. And it's not diesel. I even see a ton of diesel shops up for sale along with gas stations. It's a limited space. It's closing in and it's happening faster and faster.

So, I'm making a boat that has no mission critical dependence on land (read fuel docks and propane filling stations). It's the future-proof version of exactly what you're describing.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Well, just to begin with, it’s not a Mustang. I won’t argue that a Mustang isn’t a classic muscle car, it’s a pony car, but that irrelevant, because this is an SUV, not a Mustang, and I assume the electric F-150 will soon follow.
Both may cause more green house gas emissions than an efficient gasoline hybrid would.
But SUV’s and Pickups will sell, and that’s what’s important if your a manufacturer.

I'll be the first to admit I'm out of my depth with cars. Ha ha. I'm more of a boat guy. I don't follow cars, enjoy cars or care about them. But they will be what changes the energy/power sources. Where the cars go, people will follow. All these new electric ones are completely changing the dynamic of how we get energy and the trend is increasing. So... A future proof boat needs to watch out for these changes. That's kind of what the thread is about.

[GordMay]

From newhaul’s Bloomberg article:
“... A majority of these (renewable energy) tax breaks (51 percent) go to biofuels like ethanol and biodiesel...”

The International Monetary Fund periodically assesses global subsidies for fossil fuels as part of its work on climate, and it found, in a recent working paper*, that the fossil fuel industry got a whopping $5.2 trillion in subsidies in 2017. This amounts to 6.4 percent of the global gross domestic product.
The world would be richer and healthier if the full costs of fossil fuels were paid, according to the report.
The study defines “subsidy” very broadly, as many economists (and Roland & John) do. It accounts for the “differences between actual consumer fuel prices, and how much consumers would pay if prices fully reflected supply costs plus the taxes needed to reflect environmental costs” and other damage, including premature deaths from air pollution, etc.

* Global Fossil Fuel Subsidies Remain Large: An Update Based on Country-Level Estimates
➥ https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/...stimates-46509

About ➥ https://www.vox.com/2019/5/17/186247...es-climate-imf

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I'm not sure what I'm missing here , electric motors and batteries are far from being new technology, very old in fact and advancements in both have been very small, they are basically the same as they were 50 years ago. Even Lithium isnt particularly new.

That's really my point; while there has been continual improvements in all the necessary technology, the improvements are linear. We keep building a better mouse trap, but it's still fundamentally the same concept.

To get magnitudinal changes that would make it viable for most cruising-level boats, I think we need a 10x to 100x fold improvement. And I suspect (conjecture on my part) that this will require a whole new approach to solar collection and amp storage.

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

...I would love to have the chance to install an up to date, state of the art electric propulsion system on a boat. I really think the advancements in technology have made this feasible for many applications. Perhaps with a small diesel generator in reserve to cover emergency situations.

DF, there are companies that make electric engine systems for cruising level boats right now. You can order one right off the Internet today if you want. Just search for "marine electric engines", or something similar.

I spent a number of weeks deeply researching the idea about a year ago. I found at least three companies marketing marinized electric engine systems, which included the battery storage. So you can do it today if you want to.

It is from this research that I concluded the technology is not yet able to do the things I need or want. But for boats that don't go far, and/or stay within easy access to shore power, it is certainly possible today. No need to wait.

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

That's really my point; while there has been continual improvements in all the necessary technology, the improvements are linear. We keep building a better mouse trap, but it's still fundamentally the same concept.

To get magnitudinal changes that would make it viable for most cruising-level boats, I think we need a 10x to 100x fold improvement. And I suspect (conjecture on my part) that this will require a whole new approach to solar collection and amp storage.



DF, there are companies that make electric engine systems for cruising level boats right now. You can order one right off the Internet today if you want. Just search for "marine electric engines", or something similar.

I spent a number of weeks deeply researching the idea about a year ago. I found at least three companies marketing marinized electric engine systems, which included the battery storage. So you can do it today if you want to.

It is from this research that I concluded the technology is not yet able to do the things I need or want. But for boats that don't go far, and/or stay within easy access to shore power, it is certainly possible today. No need to wait.

You get not much argument from me here. I guess I didn't make myself clear however, at the moment, It is me that doesn't have the chance to build an electrical propulsion boat, not that the industry isn't capable of supplying the necessary equipment.

However, I will argue that electric motors can be much more efficient than in previous years due to research and I argue that LFP batteries are much more efficient than LA batteries. I do see that the producers of LA batteries are spending more on research so that even they are more efficient than they were a few years ago.

Posters on this forum and others that are leading the way have proven that a simple boat can be mostly self sufficient. However, you are correct that, especially at our latitude and climate, we are still dependent on fossil fuels.