Inboard engines and a changing world

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually...I think your horse analogy is a good example, except it doesn't support your assertion.

A little googling....Price of a riding horse in 1860 was around $75. Inflation adjusted that's around $2400.

Basic trail riding horse today is around $1000-4000.

Obviously, you can pull out specialty animals to play with the exact numbers and get some odd results but you can also take specialty cars and get odd results (ie: lambos costing upwards of half a million or race horses costing many thousands).

Gas vs Electric will likely be similar. EVs right now are limited to certain niches (though potentially large niches). For other niches, they are unlikely to be practical for many decades...if ever. Given that your average car today lasts 20yrs...If it's 20yrs before EVs make up 1/2 of sales...that means 40yrs before half of vehicles are EVs...that means in 40yrs there are still many millions of gas vehicles on the road.

My only assertion is we are about to be in unknown territory because our sources of energy for transportation are changing quickly.

Anyone heard of using whale oil for lighting before the electric light took over?

All I'm saying is things are changing in a way that affects our boats and that we may want to plan for changes.

My way of dealing with it is fitting out the boat to be as independent of land as possible. Outboards because yes, electric can't be used for longer range. Excellent light air sailing ability and ease of sail handling so engines are not needed much anyway. Still need HVAC so an easily replaceable generator for that purpose. Everything else electric so when power sources change, it's plug and play. Ie: when the portable fusion reactor comes out, I can easily swap out the generator for that and everything will still work. Maybe swap out for fusion outboards too. Ha ha.

But seriously, we are on here all day long talking about preparing for every possible outcome of boating. Every emergency. Every situation. Can't we also prepare for possible outcomes of the passage of time and rapidly changing energy markets?

(This isn't all directed at you, Valhalla. )

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

My only assertion is we are about to be in unknown territory because our sources of energy for transportation are changing quickly.

Anyone heard of using whale oil for lighting before the electric light took over?

All I'm saying is things are changing in a way that affects our boats and that we may want to plan for changes.

My way of dealing with it is fitting out the boat to be as independent of land as possible. Outboards because yes, electric can't be used for longer range. Excellent light air sailing ability and ease of sail handling so engines are not needed much anyway. Still need HVAC so an easily replaceable generator for that purpose. Everything else electric so when power sources change, it's plug and play. Ie: when the portable fusion reactor comes out, I can easily swap out the generator for that and everything will still work. Maybe swap out for fusion outboards too. Ha ha.

But seriously, we are on here all day long talking about preparing for every possible outcome of boating. Every emergency. Every situation. Can't we also prepare for possible outcomes of the passage of time and rapidly changing energy markets?

(This isn't all directed at you, Valhalla. )

Putting in significant expense and effort to plan for an event that MIGHT happen in 40yrs...no thanks. If I'm alive in 40yrs, I'll just be happy to be alive. The odds of still having a boat bought today is so slim it doesn't matter.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Putting in significant expense and effort to plan for an event that MIGHT happen in 40yrs...no thanks. If I'm alive in 40yrs, I'll just be happy to be alive. The odds of still having a boat bought today is so slim it doesn't matter.

That could explain the different outlook I have.

I have my "lifetime boat" and I'm in my 40s. It's empty inside and needs a fit out. So, I'm trying to do it in a way that stands the test of time.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

That could explain the different outlook I have.

I have my "lifetime boat" and I'm in my 40s. It's empty inside and needs a fit out. So, I'm trying to do it in a way that stands the test of time.

I'm in my 40's also...realistically, I know by the time I'm 90 the odds are I won't be physically able to keep cruising (if I am, that's great but the odds are so slim, it's not consideration)...plus more importantly, 40yrs of advancement and anything I do today will be wildly outdated.

Think of it this way 1980 (approx 40yr ago). Internet, cell phones, GPS, electronic diesels, high tech sail materials, etc...all wildly different and anything you would have done to prepare would likely have cost a lot of money and effort and provided little or no advantage.

No reason to expect the next 40yrs won't see similar wildly different changes.

Preparations that might be useful...provide conduits and panels to make updates easier (don't put wiring, hoses and other utilities behind permanently glassed in panels). Provide an engine room that makes swapping the diesel out for some new propulsion system easy (ie: no cutting open the deck to remove an engine).

Predicting and then living on the BLEEDING EDGE of technology rarely results in advantage long term.

[Reefmagnet]

If anyone thinks a refit will be good for 20 years or more than they may be exposing themselves to disappointment in the long term.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Chotu

My only assertion is we are about to be in unknown territory because our sources of energy for transportation are changing quickly.
Anyone heard of using whale oil for lighting before the electric light took over?
All I'm saying is things are changing in a way that affects our boats and that we may want to plan for changes...
... But seriously, we are on here all day long talking about preparing for every possible outcome of boating. Every emergency. Every situation. Can't we also prepare for possible outcomes of the passage of time and rapidly changing energy markets?

CHANGING TIMES:
In the late 1800s, Studebaker was one of the largest manufacturers of horse drawn wagons in the world. On the urging of a junior executive, they started producing electric cars. A shift to vehicles powered by internal combustion engines followed, and in a span of 17 years the transition from wagons to gasoline-powered cars was complete.

[GordMay]

Welcome to Canada’s Electric Highway
You’ve always been able to drive from the Rockies to the Maritimes. And now, you can do it in an electric vehicle.
➥ https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/perso...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

Other petroleum suppliers have subsequently seen the sense in Petro-Can’s Electric Highway endeavour. EV charging firm Swtch has partnered with Air-serv (the company that supplies tire pressure air pumps to gas stations), and will provide fast-charging services at sites across Canada.

SWTCH ➥ https://swtchenergy.com/

Also, Shell Oil has purchased the Greenlots charging system.
Greenlots ➥ https://greenlots.com/greenlots-anno...rgy-providers/
More ➥ https://www.shell.com/energy-and-inn...-charging.html

There are several websites/apps that track the location of every single public charging station in the world.
Find a charging station near you.
➥ https://www.caa.ca/electric-vehicles/charging-stations/

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Chotu

That could explain the different outlook I have.



I have my "lifetime boat" and I'm in my 40s. It's empty inside and needs a fit out. So, I'm trying to do it in a way that stands the test of time.

I’m in my 40s also and repowered with old tech beta diesel because I cruise on east coast of US and Chesapeake mainly for now.
Lots of light air (which my boat sails well in) and no air days where I still like to get to destination.

If anyone likes to motor at Hull speed for better part of a windless day then electric won’t work now, and who knows when, unless you like to park in a marina to recharge every night.

But Chotu- you have outboards so you haven’t gone electric. I have a prop shaft attached to Diesel engine. Both are easily retrofit to electric when the time comes.

In boating it will be generations before gas/diesel is gone because of the numbers and strength of powerboat industry.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I’m in my 40s also and repowered with old tech beta diesel because I cruise on east coast of US and Chesapeake mainly for now.
Lots of light air (which my boat sails well in) and no air days where I still like to get to destination.

If anyone likes to motor at Hull speed for better part of a windless day then electric won’t work now, and who knows when, unless you like to park in a marina to recharge every night.

But Chotu- you have outboards so you haven’t gone electric. I have a prop shaft attached to Diesel engine. Both are easily retrofit to electric when the time comes.

In boating it will be generations before gas/diesel is gone because of the numbers and strength of powerboat industry.

Why does everyone think I'm talking about going electric for propulsion?

I'm talking about the energy source for a boat.

I'm talking about the rest of the boat. And maybe also that outboards are replaced in an hour or so by whatever they have turning the props. Hydrogen, propane, some new battery, fusion reactors... Whatever.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

If anyone thinks a refit will be good for 20 years or more than they may be exposing themselves to disappointment in the long term.

I also have a well designed and equipped 30 year old boat that works just fine with mostly all original equipment.

Additionally, the entire point of this thread was to discuss the changing energy sources and how to best design a boat's system for the easiest possible refit.

Did I ever say I wanted my outboards or generator to last a lifetime?

I want everything flexible and designed to be easily replaced with the latest energy sources. That means electric everything inside the boat, no matter if the boat is getting energy from gasoline, diesel, hydrogen, new types of batteries, whale oil or a portable fusion reactor.

Any new technology will be generating electricity, so it's just a matter of hooking the new high tech power plant up to the existing electrical system.

Outboards means an hour to replace with new propulsion, whatever that may be.

Ok... Signing out here. I'll just go about my business making a boat that is future ready. I'll post again 20-30 years from now and we'll see where it all stands.

Until then...

[GordMay]

The future is electric.
If the aviation industry is to achieve its goal of a 50% reduction in net aviation CO2 emissions by 2050, future technologies in alternative propulsion must be accelerated.
The E-Fan X is the next step in Airbus’ electrification journey, and a giant leap towards achieving zero-emission flight over the next 20 years. This ambitious hybrid-electric aircraft demonstrator is expected to embark on its first flight in 2021. In the test aircraft, one of the four jet engines will be replaced by a 2MW electric motor, which is roughly equivalent to that of 10 medium-sized cars. The electric propulsion unit is powered by a power-generation system and battery. When high power is required—at take-off, for example—the generator and battery supply energy together.

More ➥ https://www.airbus.com/innovation/**...t/e-fan-x.html

And ➥ https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news...-electric.html

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Think about this for a sec, so you shift work, and you can’t take a shower, cook or wash and dry your clothes because your neighbor is charging his car?
Or the timer fails or due to a power failure forgets what time is is or whatever and the building burns down?
You surely have to admit that with a high enough number of units, anything that can happen, will.

Those scenarios are both extreme and unlikely. First and mainly - you're not a slave to your neighbours' patterns, it's only your loads that would matter. If you're a shiftworker and you cook and do laundry at night, then you charge when you sleep.

Second, sophisticated load management is already a thing.

It would be simple to have automated charge control that only runs the charger when your home's current draw is below a given point. Commercial buildings already use load management to keep down their peak draw (eg don't let every cooling unit run at the same time). It's possible now to have coordinated load management, cycling (eg rotating charging - neighbourhood A, then B, then C) at low cost.

Home EV charging is an easy problem to manage, and the conversion to EV isn't happening overnight.

(Yes, this and the EV thread seem to have merged...)

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I also have a well designed and equipped 30 year old boat that works just fine with mostly all original equipment.

Additionally, the entire point of this thread was to discuss the changing energy sources and how to best design a boat's system for the easiest possible refit.

Did I ever say I wanted my outboards or generator to last a lifetime?

I want everything flexible and designed to be easily replaced with the latest energy sources. That means electric everything inside the boat, no matter if the boat is getting energy from gasoline, diesel, hydrogen, new types of batteries, whale oil or a portable fusion reactor.

Any new technology will be generating electricity, so it's just a matter of hooking the new high tech power plant up to the existing electrical system.

Outboards means an hour to replace with new propulsion, whatever that may be.

Ok... Signing out here. I'll just go about my business making a boat that is future ready. I'll post again 20-30 years from now and we'll see where it all stands.

Until then...

Apparantly, the release date has fallen a few years behind on this nifty little device, but hang in there

[daletournier]

My boat has two tanks that combined hold 320 liters (84 gallon) Running conservatively my 75hp yanmar will give approx 700nm. Both tanks are under my rear cabin bed.

Those two tanks take up a area of approx 11.3 cubic feet.

I have 480w of solar , I have the space to increase that to 1000w. Obviously this has nothing to do with the diesel but it does if changing to electric . For ease of argument let's forget the solar.

So ,to put things into a more visual context , what area would be required to carry the equivalent amount of Lifepo batteries needed to replace 320 l of diesel ? Assuming the eclectic motor was speced correctly to replace the 75hp yanmar.

1 liter at approx 1,800 rpm gets approx 2.5 nm, how much battery space is required to get the same distance at that speed?

What would the weight of the required batteries be?

I have no idea.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Why does everyone think I'm talking about going electric for propulsion?

I'm talking about the energy source for a boat.

I'm talking about the rest of the boat. And maybe also that outboards are replaced in an hour or so by whatever they have turning the props. Hydrogen, propane, some new battery, fusion reactors... Whatever.

Because the main energy sink for a boat is propulsion...and the title refers to the INBOARD ENGINE which has a primary purpose of providing propulsion.

If you just want to run a few lights and the electronics...the future is literally decades old. A few solar panels and some 6v golf cart batteries will do the trick. That's been easy for a long time.