Inboard engines and a changing world

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I know that you’re impatient with any insistence on factual accuracy; but when your uncorroborated assertions of “fact” (which turn out to be fallacies) seem to be so profoundly, and dependably wrong, it’s not inconceivable that your conclusions may be similarity dependably false.

try a full context quoting not just a small part of the overall .

Here it is again for you . The full context that shows why diesel is not going away anytime in the foreseeable future.

We have 2 refineries in my area that actually specialise in jet fuel due to the SeaTac airport as well as the USAF and NAS bases here . You can't actually run your car on any grade of " diesel" from #2 farm all the way up to #1kerosene spark ignition is just not hot enough for proper flashing. And yes you can run a diesel marine engine on jet fuel . The navy does it every day ( jp5)

all of this is splitting hairs but does show the fact that the marine diesel is here to stay


And I forgot the gas turbine military ships that burn high grade diesel fuel as well.

As long as the militaries around the world burn it it will be produced.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by newhaul

jet fuel is none the less a diesel fuel at least that's what the 7 refineries her say

Jet fuel is a clear to straw-colored fuel, based on either an unleaded kerosene (Jet A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (Jet B). Similar to diesel fuel, it can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines.[citation needed]

Jet-A powers modern commercial airliners and is a mix of pure kerosene and burns at temperatures at or above 49 °C (120 °F). Kerosene-based fuel has a much higher flash point than gasoline-based fuel, meaning that it requires significantly higher temperature to ignite. It is a high-quality fuel; if it fails the purity and other quality tests for use on jet aircraft, it is sold to other ground-based users with less demanding requirements, such as railroad engines

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_fuel#Jet_fuel

We have 2 refineries in my area that actually specialise in jet fuel due to the SeaTac airport as well as the USAF and NAS bases here . You can't actually run your car on any grade of " diesel" from #2 farm all the way up to #1kerosene spark ignition is just not hot enough for proper flashing. And yes you can run a diesel marine engine on jet fuel . The navy does it every day ( jp5)

all of this is splitting hairs but does show the fact that the marine diesel is here to stay.

Try filling your boat with straight jet fuel and tell us how it works out.

Locomotive and ship engines are wildly different animals in terms of what they will accept in terms of fuel.

PS: I wasn't saying you could run diesel in a gas engine but you could run gasoline as a diesel fuel (with major modifications and lots of issues with the engine...just like you would need major modifications and likely lots of issues if you start running fuels that aren't diesel)

[skenn_ie]

Trucks and cars cruise at relatively low power settings. Boats, not so. Battery-Electric motors are fine as long as high power is only needed occasionally.

[St. Elsewhere]

Electricity is not a source of energy! After 258 entries and much debate, please consider that whenever you "plug in" you are receiving energy produced from coal, natural gas, falling water, nuclear, wind, oil, solar radiation, or other natural sources. Electricity is simply a means a means of transporting it, or storing it temporarily in batteries.

[Ifitsworthdoing]

Interesting post - am pondering the same options planning to commission a new boat in around 2022 (specifically designed as a technology demonstrator) likely in a deal with Torqeedo or Aquawatt. It will be a 34ft catamaran intended to show that green technology can work for compact passagemakers, with saildrives capable of hydrogeneration, large extending solar panels and 2 wind turbines ... basically a scaled down version of the Energy Observer currently halfway through its round-the-world trip. Clearly some form of sail propulsion (e.g. kite sails) and of a gen set are still needed, and top speed will be capped around 12 knots, but Planet Solar and SolarWave have already completed long distance feasibility (and the Swiss creators of the latter are now building the almost affordable SilentYachts in Turkey ...). Definitely a case of Watch This Space - and the retrofit conversion market should become huge, too!

[skenn_ie]

Hydrogeneration while under sail, from whatever type of propulsion system you envisage, isn't really viable IMO. You don't get electricity for nothing. If you are drawing electrical power, you are also slowing yourself down, considerably. Ditto wind power, unless the wind is substantially from behind.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

Hydrogeneration while under sail, from whatever type of propulsion system you envisage, isn't really viable IMO. You don't get electricity for nothing. If you are drawing electrical power, you are also slowing yourself down, considerably. Ditto wind power, unless the wind is substantially from behind.

Yes we are all familiar with the second law of thermodynamics. But people seem happy with watt and sea etc, so it must work reasonably well. (except for the price..). If it's not "viable" I wouldn't expect them to sell a single unit..

I can't see how the drag from that tiny prop is at all significant compared to the force on sails. The slowdown is basically the same as using a folding prop vs not. Or sailing with the outboard down vs up. I.e not very much, especially not when the boat gets larger. And once the wind is strong enough to push you past hull speed you'd just convert that excess energy into electricity, which would be wasted anyway

[scandium]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Those huge government subsidies are what makes the case for an electric car, first your subsidized in buying it and can get the power for free, and oh by the way you don’t pay anything for road use taxes either.

My problem with all of that is that is the average taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy, and I think that’s wrong. The funny thing is that so many refuse to see that, they want to gloss over that, they are true believers.

Any thing, any new technology ought to stand on its own, making the poorer class subsidize the wealthier class is wrong.

But most of us, to include me, would do the same thing, I’m not saying your wrong for doing it.

A few years ago when the Electric vehicle subsidies first got started, all or most of the wealthier people in my town got free electric golf carts, to pull behind their F-150’s to go golfing on the weekend.
$7,500 subsidy just about covers the cost of a golf cart I believe.

The electric car thing will happen, based on economics, which is the way it should be, but they should pay road use tax just as all other vehicles do, and they should not be subsidized, if it’s a good viable thing and I think it is, then it will happen.

Considering we spent a few trillion dollars on the war in Iraq to secure oil, , billions every year in weapon giveaways to saudi-arabia, sweet deals to the oil companies, government bearing external costs of pollution etc, the subsidies to EVs is absurdly insignificant.

In general I do agree that subsidizing a $90k sports car is dumb, but it has sort of worked, and if it in the end accelerate "normal" EV uptake it could be an ok policy. And definitely better than continuing to subsidize ICE vehicles which we would anyway. Like it or not government has a role in technological development and adoption, from railways to the internet. If it didn't we'd never get anywhere.

[GrowleyMonster]

Electric propulsion "can" be used by cruising sailboats. That is not to say that it is very practical for the majority of cruisers. It is not.



Electric propulsion SHOULD be used by day sailers. It is clean, cheap, quiet, low maintenance, and very flexible and capable.



This isn't going to change very much, very soon. Diesel will be the best choice for most cruisers for some time to come. The market for fuel, electricity, etc will not be heavily impacted by EP even if it does achieve say a 50% market share. And that won't happen until someone invents a magic battery that doubles presently available power densities and lifespan, and costs half of current best prices per KW and is easier to maintain, with a better safety posture.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

As the march to switch to all electric motors for automobiles and trucks continues to accelerate, what will become of our boats?

Will diesel get cheap because the demand drops or will it become a high priced specialty fuel because no one makes it anymore?

What about propane cooktops? Gasoline for outboards? Heaters (diesel, propane, etc)?

People are moving away from these things and it's not slowing down. A lot of people are selling gas stations because they see the writing on the wall.

What do you think will happen to our boats, which mostly run on fossil fuels when not sailing?

No doubt things will steadily move to electric, but I doubt we will see the demise of carbon fuels in my lifetime..I have a good 40 yrs to go..fingers crossed. As batteries improve, I think you will see boat makers move with the technology. As the saying goes, you can be on the cutting edge, just don't be on the bleeding edge. I think boat makers will wait and see.

[PADISail]

I like the idea of the dual function units, I think they are "OceanVolt" mfgr...
When sailing they generate power and charge your system, then when becalmed or in port they can be used for a drive unit.
Having never seen one in operation, I don't know if they are good for reaching cruising speeds (over 5 knots) for any prolonged period, of if they are only functional for low speed navigation.

I can see something like that improving with time, to the point of efficient renewable motivation.

I see no reason why; wind, solar, and hydro power generation is not a good idea on the water. Take advantage or ALL the sources available...

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Try filling your boat with straight jet fuel and tell us how it works out.

Locomotive and ship engines are wildly different animals in terms of what they will accept in terms of fuel.

PS: I wasn't saying you could run diesel in a gas engine but you could run gasoline as a diesel fuel (with major modifications and lots of issues with the engine...just like you would need major modifications and likely lots of issues if you start running fuels that aren't diesel)

not really much modifying of a diesel engine to run gasoline .
International harvester did just that in the 1950's
The 265bgl6 a straight 6 diesel engine that was modified to run gasoline .

However in a SHTF situation its far more likely to go the other way modifying a gas engine to run biodiesel that is made in your barn.

as to the ship engines I was referring to are the military gas turbine engines .

As to running my diesel on jet A I would happily do that . (
I know this is anecdotal but when in the U.S. Navy I ran a 471 Detroit on jet A on a regular basis in the hydro blaster ( giant high pressure washer 10k psi unit)
the airplane tugs on the carrier were diesel engines that ran jp4 ( A fuel)

[Mauruuru]

There are at least 4 commercially viable retrofit companies that can provide all you need to convert from diesel to electric drive.
In addition there are a couple of companies that will sell you conversion kits---a little less finished but a whole lot cheaper and basically all of the components are similar.
A simple Google search is all you need to find them.

For those who eschew the trend , or claim there is no trend, no problem just wait a while and we'll see.....

[Craig_B]

I have read the first page of this post and a few here and there on following pages so this may have already been covered. But.


Gas and diesel powered vehicles will be here for an very long time yet.
The electric market was growing but still has a Long way to go.


The biggest factor here is once you remove the government subsidies from the manufacturing end and the purchasing end electric cars still cost More to produce than the selling price.
Government is already starting to remove subsidies here and I suspect around the globe as well.

Electric etc may one day surpass traditional energy sources but for the near future its still all unicorns and rainbows.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Try filling your boat with straight jet fuel and tell us how it works out

It will actually work just fine, JP8 which is also Jet-A, by a large margin is the most common Jet fuel is essentially a high grade of kerosene with some additives for anti icing etc.

Winter Diesel is essentially kerosene.

US Military back I guess in the 1980’s went to one single fuel, that being JP8, they run it in all their Diesels and of course their Diesel engines are mostly COTS, which is an acronym for Commercial Off the Shelf.

There is some concern that kerosene is a very dry fuel and lacks the lubricity so that over a long time your HP pump will wear, but it’s not been born out.