Inboard engines and a changing world

[a64pilot]

You can also run Diesel or at least JP8 in a spark ignition engine, but not with carburetors I don’t think.
Mercury is doing it in a special Ops outboard and Lycoming has built a drone motor that is spark ignition and runs on JP8.
https://www.mercuryracing.com/optima...ting-for-duty/

[Mauruuru]

one word R E P L A C E M E N T S!

[Mauruuru]

Actually EV charging not only would not stress most electric grids, it could be beneficial to both customer and electric company. For example, following the recession of 2008, about 35% of the energy throughput on the grid was lost. While instantaneous demand finally rebounded (Peak Kilowatts per hour), Energy (Kilowatt hours)_ did not so there is capacity in the system particularly if charging is done OFF Peak (between say 10PM and 7 am). Finally, using Bidirectional chargers, would allow for EV's to be used for peak load leveling during peak times or in situations where a utility emergency exists and could return value to the EV owner.....

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I believe motor fuel use is 25 Million barrels of fuel per day.
Now I’ve not vetted that number, but to replace that amount of power with electricity is going to take a whole lot of Solar panels.
Maybe in some European city that will soon ban automobiles, then maybe a gas station would be in trouble, but not any normal one.

I wonder if that fuel consumption includes heavy oat is a major contributor to pollution, if not CO2.

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by Mauruuru

Actually EV charging not only would not stress most electric grids, it could be beneficial to both customer and electric company. For example, following the recession of 2008, about 35% of the energy throughput on the grid was lost. While instantaneous demand finally rebounded (Peak Kilowatts per hour), Energy (Kilowatt hours)_ did not so there is capacity in the system particularly if charging is done OFF Peak (between say 10PM and 7 am). Finally, using Bidirectional chargers, would allow for EV's to be used for peak load leveling during peak times or in situations where a utility emergency exists and could return value to the EV owner.....

Charging off-peak is good, but are you suggesting that EV batteries be used via grit-tied inverters, to supplement grid power during peak times ? EV batteries are considerably more expensive than grid storage, and even with the substantial charge/discharge cycle count, they would be a very expensive way of storing power for anything other than road use.

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by scandium

Yes we are all familiar with the second law of thermodynamics. But people seem happy with watt and sea etc, so it must work reasonably well. (except for the price..). If it's not "viable" I wouldn't expect them to sell a single unit..

I can't see how the drag from that tiny prop is at all significant compared to the force on sails. The slowdown is basically the same as using a folding prop vs not. Or sailing with the outboard down vs up. I.e not very much, especially not when the boat gets larger. And once the wind is strong enough to push you past hull speed you'd just convert that excess energy into electricity, which would be wasted anyway

Drag from a tiny prop ? A tiny prop will give you very little electricity, and any current allowed to flow from such a generator will increase the drag further. Props are the wrong shape to work as turbines, they are actually mirror images of what works well. If you really want to do it, have a turbine that you can lower into the water when you need it. In my experience, approaching hull speed while under sail is quite rare too, and people would usually reef if the wind is strong enough to do that.

[daysgoneby]

The near-impossible task of electrifying the global passenger fleet
Mass adoption of EVs faces enormous challenges on all fronts — both demand and supply

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...nWt9-P4ZjgCtxA

[DeepFrz]

Government is already starting to remove subsidies here and I suspect around the globe as well.

If by "here" you mean the US then I understand where you are coming from. The US in particular and Canada as well have very fossil fuel friendly governments that throw huge subsidies to the oil/gas industry. However that has set them back well behind Europe and China, especially, in the adoption of electrically powered transportation, including EVs. Much of Europe is far ahead of North America in the adoption of electrically powered transportation, including trains, ferries, canal shipping and cars. Some countries heavily subsidize EVs, but not nearly as much as they subsidize fossil fuel industry, and other countries not so much. Many cities have or are planning to ban ICE cars from the city centers. Cities that have already done this are enjoying renewed appreciation of city centers as they are cleaner, smell better and much quieter than they were.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

Drag from a tiny prop ? A tiny prop will give you very little electricity, and any current allowed to flow from such a generator will increase the drag further. Props are the wrong shape to work as turbines, they are actually mirror images of what works well. If you really want to do it, have a turbine that you can lower into the water when you need it. In my experience, approaching hull speed while under sail is quite rare too, and people would usually reef if the wind is strong enough to do that.

you should really do a search for marine / tow behind water generators .

Also you must not actually sail much/ know many actual sailing people. Most of us actually do everything we can do to reach hull speed. ( part of the fun of sailing. )

a small towed generator will produce about 5 amps at 5 to 7 knots speed through the water.
Now you can say that's not much power but after 24 hours underway you have 120ah produced and that's about enough to satisfy the electrical needs of the average 40 something sailboat. Throw in some solar and the boat is flush with power for domestic needs.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

If by "here" you mean the US then I understand where you are coming from. The US in particular and Canada as well have very fossil fuel friendly governments that throw huge subsidies to the oil/gas industry. However that has set them back well behind Europe and China, especially, in the adoption of electrically powered transportation, including EVs. Much of Europe is far ahead of North America in the adoption of electrically powered transportation, including trains, ferries, canal shipping and cars. Some countries heavily subsidize EVs, but not nearly as much as they subsidize fossil fuel industry, and other countries not so much. Many cities have or are planning to ban ICE cars from the city centers. Cities that have already done this are enjoying renewed appreciation of city centers as they are cleaner, smell better and much quieter than they were.

actually if you really want go see what would happen without subsidies for the ev market just look at China .
From August

https://qz.com/1683042/beijings-subs...-ev-maker-byd/

From September

https://fortune.com/2019/09/06/gover...-vehicle-boom/

And last October

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pikeres.../#59cc87b53005

Read them in chronological order to see the progression .

Their ev market is failing .

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

Charging off-peak is good, but are you suggesting that EV batteries be used via grit-tied inverters, to supplement grid power during peak times ? EV batteries are considerably more expensive than grid storage, and even with the substantial charge/discharge cycle count, they would be a very expensive way of storing power for anything other than road use.

Being able to draw from connected EVs during peak load is a bonus benefit, not a primary design goal. It's just something extra one gets from having all those rolling batteries connected to the grid.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by newhaul

[China's] ev market is failing .

From your last link:

However, the end of subsidies in China isn’t the end of the EV market in the country. Investors may not be interested in floating small, unestablished EV makers, but they are still drawn to top competitors in the Chinese market. The annual sales growth rate for EVs is still growing in the country despite a sales slowdown in the months following the subsidy rollback.

A silver lining in China’s new incentive policy may be absolving the range anxiety challenge by pushing the EV market more forcefully toward the mass market, since China now only offers subsidies for plug-in EVs with over 250 km of range. It may hurt the market in the near term, but in the long term, it may be helpful.

Overall, government support is crucial for countries with small, slower-growth EV markets to take off, but the Chinese market is large enough that it doesn’t need as much government support and is expected to continue growing substantially into the future.

(bolding mine.)


...failing?

You really need to read the links you post.

[DeepFrz]

Nowhere did I see the word "failing" and China has many electric buses in service and many thousands of miles of high speed electric railways. They are on the right track.

Tesla's Gigafactory just got permission to start production and their orders are high.

EV orders around the world are increasing every year.

Tesla is just now completing Supercharger installations and PetroCan is also completing their network of rapid chargers linking Eastern and Western Canada which should help with sales here, although Canada is a small market over all.

Edit: Thanks Lake-Effect, you beat me to it.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

Drag from a tiny prop ? A tiny prop will give you very little electricity, and any current allowed to flow from such a generator will increase the drag further. Props are the wrong shape to work as turbines, they are actually mirror images of what works well. If you really want to do it, have a turbine that you can lower into the water when you need it. In my experience, approaching hull speed while under sail is quite rare too, and people would usually reef if the wind is strong enough to do that.

I don't know your definition, but the watt and sea has a 240 mm prop. Sounds pretty tiny to me. I believe it will generate about 8-10 amps at normal speeds. Is that "very little"? Maybe. And yes it can be raised and lowered.
https://www.wattandsea.com/en/produc...o-cruising-600

I dont even own this product, and don't imagine I will, but you don't seem to know much about this thing your discussing..

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by scandium

I don't know your definition, but the watt and sea has a 240 mm prop. Sounds pretty tiny to me. I believe it will generate about 8-10 amps at normal speeds. Is that "very little"? Maybe. And yes it can be raised and lowered.
https://www.wattandsea.com/en/produc...o-cruising-600

I dont even own this product, and don't imagine I will, but you don't seem to know much about this thing your discussing..

lets do the math
8 amps ) 8x24 hours = 192ah ( on a daily basis underway that works great )

10 amps ) 10x24 =240ah ( That's as much as the total capacity of my Lfp bank on my 29 ft boat.

I'm happy with my diy tow behind unit . I'm expecting to get 5 to 7 amps output at 6 knots ( hull speed)