Inboard engines and a changing world

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You are still focused on making a non-viable system work by providing inducements. I'm talking about letting the market provide inducements...but only if there is value...which there likely is if you let the market do the pricing.

A simple early step would be a pre-programmed meter that scales the KWH reading up or down by time of day. It's generally fairly predictable when high and low demand is by time of day, so this would get 80-90% of the advantage while being very simple to implement...ie: if power is 50% more expensive, it records 50% more kwh. If power is half the price, it records half the kwh. No need for the power company to even track this...this could be an interim step towards the power company putting out pricing that is different each day but close enough to actually provide benefits of having dispersed power provided when demand is high.

We've had time of day metering here for several years. It's a pretty simple step that allows every consumer to trade some convenience for cost savings AND it helps to reduce peak demand.

But again, you don't get quickly to a viable system without inducements, whether they're from a utility aiming to avoid grid changes for as long as possible, or from government pressure.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

But again, you don't get quickly to a viable system without inducements, whether they're from a utility aiming to avoid grid changes for as long as possible, or from government pressure.

You are missing the point. If the utility benefits financially, that's a market based reason to change. Keep the govt out of it as much as possible.

[a64pilot]

You guys don’t understand hybrids, there are several types of hybrids
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybr...cle_drivetrain
The Prius is a power split or Series - parallel hybrid, in fact it’s “transmission” is called by Toyota as the power spilt device, there are no gears, it’s a planetary system and the engine is always connected and there is no neutral, no reverse and no changing of gears.
The most efficient way to use the power an internal combustion makes is to drive the vehicle directly with it, most hybrid cars operate that way, but can use the ice to make electricity to store it in the battery, or use regenerative braking of course.

In a Prius using the ICE to make electricity to drive the electric motors is one of its operating modes, the Hypermilers call it the the irrational mode as making electricity to drive an electric motor is less efficient. But it is assumed the Prius will do this when only very low power is required at a relatively high speed and driving mechanically there isn’t a high enough gear possible so it can go to this mode to run the engine very slowly at low power output at a high vehicle speed, like going down a long hill at highway speeds for instance.
What goes on is not nearly as simple as you May think, but if you want to do some reading so you understand here is a coupe of links
http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/PriusFrames.htm

Here you need to navigate to the page of understanding your Prius

This explains the five different stages of operation the Prius goes though and why.
https://priuschat.com/threads/the-fi...eration.12919/

Having high torque electric motors also enables entirely different operating modes of the ICE, no need to go to power enrichment and it can operate as an Atkinson / miller cycle engine too, and lack of power enrichment and being an Atkinson cycle engine and not an Otto cycle engine make it much more efficient.

However the upcoming this year Mazda gasoline fueled Diesel engine should blow the Prius motor out of the water efficiency wise, and I bet as it’s easier to control emissions it will even beat a regular Diesel engine in efficiency, as a regular Diesel has to give up efficiency at times to control emissions, and the emission systems of course rob power themselves.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You are missing the point. If the utility benefits financially, that's a market based reason to change. Keep the govt out of it as much as possible.

You are missing the point. It requires a push to become big enough to be viable. Until there's enough solar or user "batteries" online to make a significant dent in peak demand, there's not that much benefit to the utility. It's just a pain in the a$$ to them right now. Sometimes a market must be made.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You are missing the point. It requires a push to become big enough to be viable. Until there's enough solar or user "batteries" online to make a significant dent in peak demand, there's not that much benefit to the utility. It's just a pain in the a$$ to them right now. Sometimes a market must be made.

what point ?
The fact that some think the best way is for governments to be heavily Invested in citizens daily lives?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You guys don’t understand hybrids, there are several types of hybrids
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybr...cle_drivetrain
The Prius is a power split or Series - parallel hybrid, in fact it’s “transmission” is called by Toyota as the power spilt device, there are no gears, it’s a planetary system and the engine is always connected and there is no neutral, no reverse and no changing of gears.
The most efficient way to use the power an internal combustion makes is to drive the vehicle directly with it, most hybrid cars operate that way, but can use the ice to make electricity to store it in the battery, or use regenerative braking of course.

In a Prius using the ICE to make electricity to drive the electric motors is one of its operating modes, the Hypermilers call it the the irrational mode as making electricity to drive an electric motor is less efficient. But it is assumed the Prius will do this when only very low power is required at a relatively high speed and driving mechanically there isn’t a high enough gear possible so it can go to this mode to run the engine very slowly at low power output at a high vehicle speed, like going down a long hill at highway speeds for instance.
What goes on is not nearly as simple as you May think, but if you want to do some reading so you understand here is a coupe of links
Graham's Toyota Prius

Here you need to navigate to the page of understanding your Prius

This explains the five different stages of operation the Prius goes though and why.
https://priuschat.com/threads/the-fi...eration.12919/

Having high torque electric motors also enables entirely different operating modes of the ICE, no need to go to power enrichment and it can operate as an Atkinson / miller cycle engine too, and lack of power enrichment and being an Atkinson cycle engine and not an Otto cycle engine make it much more efficient.

However the upcoming this year Mazda gasoline fueled Diesel engine should blow the Prius motor out of the water efficiency wise, and I bet as it’s easier to control emissions it will even beat a regular Diesel engine in efficiency, as a regular Diesel has to give up efficiency at times to control emissions, and the emission systems of course rob power themselves.

did you just say a gasoline fueled diesel engine? :-):-):-)

[GordMay]

Climate change is the greatest example of free market failure we have ever seen.
Electric vehicles can also be considered an example of market failure. Their benefits, to society as a whole, exceed those to individuals, so they're undersupplied by a free market.
Evs can be expected to result in positive social benefits, by way of reduced pollution emissions, and because of the concomitant decrease in the consumption of fossil fuels, that market adoption would bring about.
However, the many societal benefits will not be captured in the market, and will not, therefore, encourage the use of these alternatives to conventional ICE vehicles.
This means that the rate of adoption of electric vehicles will be slower than is socially optimal, which is an argument for government intervention, through subsidies for electric vehicles and etc.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Climate change is the greatest example of free market failure we have ever seen.
Electric vehicles can also be considered an example of market failure. Their benefits, to society as a whole, exceed those to individuals, so they're undersupplied by a free market.
Evs can be expected to result in positive social benefits, by way of reduced pollution emissions, and because of the concomitant decrease in the consumption of fossil fuels, that market adoption would bring about.
However, the many societal benefits will not be captured in the market, and will not, therefore, encourage the use of these alternatives to conventional ICE vehicles.
This means that the rate of adoption of electric vehicles will be slower than is socially optimal, which is an argument for government intervention, through subsidies for electric vehicles and etc.

that is really quite a stretch there . The climate mp has been changing on the earth for 4.5 billion years . Sometimes it warms sometimes it cools but it is a very dynamic system .
But all of a sudden man has control over it ??? What a joke at the most man has had at the most a 5 to 7 % affect on the climate system.
To imply otherwise is really a stretch .


All of the last couple pages have little to nothing to do with the topic of this thread .

If it weren't for the ridiculous over pricing of the electric conversion systems .
The best idea to implement it into the average cruising vessel is to get the manufacturers to install " hybrid" systems . There are a couple manufacturers already for retrofitting.
Combining diesel and electric is the only way that it will become mainstream on pleasure boats.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by newhaul

did you just say a gasoline fueled diesel engine? :-):-):-)

Yes, sort of. It retains spark plugs for I assume cold weather starting and maybe a quiet operation at times etc, but does discontinue spark at times.
I believe that ultra lean mixtures are notoriously difficult to ignite reliably and using compression to ignite the fuel sort of solves that.
It does I’m sure require higher than normal fuel pressure and direct injection at timed pulses where current gasoline injection can be at any time and is sprayed on the back side of the intake valve, and how much fuel injected is determined by pulse width, but timing of injection is irrelevant, that will change with a Diesel, now a lot of what I’m saying is supposition on my part, but I know Mazda has licked the diesel ignition gasoline engine problem that many have been trying to do for years.
Anyway I believe it’s much more efficient, so couple it with a good hybrid system and fuel mileage well into the 70’s ought to be not hard to do, in fact Toyota can do it now, just there is no market for a high mileage car.
https://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/the...nition-engine/

I believe you can buy one next year, it’s not gotten much press, because well decreasing fuel consumption by 30% and a gas motor that can run on a super lean mixture of 30 to 1 instead of 14.7 to 1, isn’t news

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Yes, sort of. It retains spark plugs for I assume cold weather starting and maybe a quiet operation at times etc, but does discontinue spark at times.
I believe that ultra lean mixtures are notoriously difficult to ignite reliably and using compression to ignite the fuel sort of solves that.
It does I’m sure require higher than normal fuel pressure and direct injection at timed pulses where current gasoline injection can be at any time and is sprayed on the back side of the intake valve, and how much fuel injected is determined by pulse width, but timing of injection is irrelevant, that will change with a Diesel, now a lot of what I’m saying is supposition on my part, but I know Mazda has licked the diesel ignition gasoline engine problem that many have been trying to do for years.
Anyway I believe it’s much more efficient, so couple it with a good hybrid system and fuel mileage well into the 70’s ought to be not hard to do, in fact Toyota can do it now, just there is no market for a high mileage car.
https://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/the...nition-engine/

I believe you can buy one next year, it’s not gotten much press, because well decreasing fuel consumption by 30% and a gas motor that can run on a super lean mixture of 30 to 1 instead of 14.7 to 1, isn’t news

what I'm waiting for is when they beat the seal problem on wankel engines to run on diesel .

Could you imagine the saildrive powered by a 20Kg 40 hp single rotor wankel diesel engine .
At an average of a cup of fuel per hour :-):-)

[daysgoneby]

"Could you imagine the saildrive powered by a 20Kg 40 hp single rotor wankel diesel engine .
At an average of a cup of fuel per hour "

Not diesel but...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ry-renaissance

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by daysgoneby

"Could you imagine the saildrive powered by a 20Kg 40 hp single rotor wankel diesel engine .
At an average of a cup of fuel per hour "

Not diesel but...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ry-renaissance

Actually more luke the old ski drive from the 1960's just running diesel instead of gasoline and add in a transmission. I actually have one if them in my shop beand new old stock never even had oil in it yet.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Climate change is the greatest example of free market failure we have ever seen.
Electric vehicles can also be considered an example of market failure. Their benefits, to society as a whole, exceed those to individuals, so they're undersupplied by a free market.
Evs can be expected to result in positive social benefits, by way of reduced pollution emissions, and because of the concomitant decrease in the consumption of fossil fuels, that market adoption would bring about.
However, the many societal benefits will not be captured in the market, and will not, therefore, encourage the use of these alternatives to conventional ICE vehicles.
This means that the rate of adoption of electric vehicles will be slower than is socially optimal, which is an argument for government intervention, through subsidies for electric vehicles and etc.

...OR...by the implementation of a carbon tax (or charge) to properly recognise the environmental damage being caused by carbon dioxide emissions.

Coal and diesel would look expensive then...

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

...OR...by the implementation of a carbon tax (or charge) to properly recognise the environmental damage being caused by carbon dioxide emissions.

Coal and diesel would look expensive then...

The there is this .
https://www.technologyreview.com/f/6...-clean-energy/

And this

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/11/25/p...ars/index.html

[NorthernMac]

Funny, I ran into a cool couple on the ICW pilgrimage who are retro fitting a hybrid car motor into their sloop, even have their own YouTube channel, reminded me of this thread, thought you guys might like it

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wEZ5dacqyKc

Originally Posted by Buzzman

...OR...by the implementation of a carbon tax (or charge) to properly recognise the environmental damage being caused by carbon dioxide emissions.

Coal and diesel would look expensive then...

Carbon tax just steals more of people's money, doesn't change anything.