Inboard engines and a changing world

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Electric boat propulsion is only viable for boats that return to a Marina almost daily. They are tethered to the plug.

No, I disagree with that. Those who are time rich and can afford to sail leisurely can make this work. Last year we met an old dutch Guy who had sailed from Holland down the English channel in the Spring to the Isles of Scilly and was now working his way home in the Autumn. Little 26ft wooden yacht with a couple of solar panels on the life lines. When he came to leave he undid the mooring ropes and cast off. Shocked he hadn't started the engine, I grabbed the boat hook just in case. No need, he turned a dial in the cockpit and slid silently out of the harbour, much to everyone's surprise. Very much the £200 millionaire. I doubt his set up was anything special and certainly not $10,000 LFP, chargers and battery monitors. Instead I guess a pair of 6v batteries, an electric motor and all the time in the world to enjoy life.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

But for those who can, it ought to be a great boon, who wouldn’t want to slip out of the Marina silently? No oil changes, no raw water impellers, not thru hull, no strainer, no oil changes, no heat exchanger cleanings, no flush and refill antifreeze, no Diesel stink if your downwind, not sounding like you have a lawnmower in the Salon, if you live up North, I assume no Winterizing, who wouldn’t want that?

Tempting isn't it.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

...
Retailers 'bid' for power produced by 'generators'. Lowest price wins...

There is no doubt that wholesale electric markets are complex, in large part because electricity is different than most other goods and services. But electric markets are not so different that basic market principles of competition no longer apply.
The IESO[*1] administers a series of markets[*2] (auctions, as Buzzman notes), and related programs, that together comprise the Ontario’s wholesale electricity marketplace.
Auctions are not the only feature of the typical modern electric energy market.
The IESO's real-time energy market, also known as the physical market, serves as a platform for matching the supply and demand of electricity in Ontario.
Every five minutes, a market clearing price (MCP) is set based on the bids and offers that are settled in the wholesale electricity market. For each five-minute interval, dispatch instructions specify the required amount of energy to be injected into (by sellers) or withdrawn (by buyers) from the IESO-controlled grid based on their accepted offers and bids.

[*1] “IESO”: Independent Electricity System Operator; similar to Regional Transmission Organizations (RTOs) in the USA.

[*2] Including:
Real-time Energy Market
Day-Ahead Commitment Process
Operating Reserve Markets
Demand Response Auction
Ancillary Services Market
Transmission Rights Market
Physical Bilateral Contracts
Demand Response Pilot

More ☞ Market Operations

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by newhaul

outboard are a different critter . You can have your electric I will take the twin evinrude e Tec 2 stroke 250hp that are on the beach tigercat . Your not going from gig harbor to the San Juans for the days fishing with electric outboard .

I currently have the twin Evinrude etecs. Going to have to agree with you about them. For all the complexities, it surprised me to find they are as relaible as any diesel.

No carburator is the key.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I currently have the twin Evinrude etecs. Going to have to agree with you about them. For all the complexities, it surprised me to find they are as relaible as any diesel.

No carburator is the key.

the new ones we installed on the Felix went from 150hp triple carb to 250hp injected . Made a heck of a difference we added 15 knots at same fuel consumption .

I noticed the autocorrect screwed me up again
That boat is a Grady tigercat

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You are describing how market based pricing is SUPPOSED TO WORK.

I'm describing how home solar net metering ACTUALLY WORKS.

Most net metering plans for home based generation guarantee the homeowner can sell their power first and the utility must take it. Result, they produce power that isn't needed and the utility must buy it at inflated prices. The antithesis of market based pricing.

Of course, the batteries being used to cover base load technically work but financially don't. This is where using batteries that already exist can make it viable. If you've already covered the cost of the car batteries as part of the car, the net cost to use those to provide some base load capability can make sense financially as the sales would happen at peak time when the price is high.

PG&E in CA buys excess power from residential solar @ $.03KWh, hardly an inflated price.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by OldMan

PG&E in CA buys excess power from residential solar @ $.03KWh, hardly an inflated price.

that is just about a half penny higher than the going rate in northern California for commercially produced power .
So a bit inflated using October demand pricing .

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/mont...le_markets.php

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Chotu

And in reality, this is actually the most common type of boat. This and skiffs or center consoles on trailers kept in the backyard.



Small fishing boats and runabouts.



Electric does make a lot of sense for these and most power boats that just go out for the day or hop marina to marina.



If I had a trailerable center console in my back yard, I'd probably go electric just to avoid all the maintenance headaches surrounding outboards and carburators.

It is most boats and why I think surely for at least sail boats they will go electric.
However that center console won’t. My last boat was a 21’ CC, it had a 175 HP motor and could have used more, and carried over 100 gls of gas.
If it were electric that would probably equate to 10 gls of gas, and that wouldn’t be enough.
Maybe one day, but not anytime soon.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by OldMan

PG&E in CA buys excess power from residential solar @ $.03KWh, hardly an inflated price.

What do they sell it for?
Then consider that the delivery system they pay for, but you don’t when you sell it back, they carry all the expenses, you don’t.
It would be like paying $1 a gl for milk from the milk man, but if you have a cow he has to buy your milk and pay $1. Sounds even but of course it’s not, the real cost of milk isn’t milk, it’s the truck that delivers it and payroll taxes and wages, and Insurence etc. etc. cost of milk may only be .10c

The fallacy is of course not understanding who will pay for the upkeep of that grid, all users will of course, but all users don’t have Solar arrays that they can use to force a utility to pay more for power than it costs them to generate.
So who wins? The rich guy who has a private house and Solar. Who loses? The poor guy who doesn’t, because they both will pay the additional cost that will be passed into the price of electricity.
It’s really similar to the electric car thing, they pay nothing for the upkeep of the roads and bridges etc. Who does is the poor who can’t afford a new electric car, so the poor get to pay for the upkeep of the transportation infrastructure, and the wealthy get a free ride.

I have just been astonished that the same groups that push for homeless reform etc are the ones that push for these subsidies etc., not realizing or more likely want them to subsidize the wealthy and leave the poor out, cause they are most often not poor themselves.
That or they are just following whatever Social media says and are incapable of independent thought? It’s not hard at all to see who wins with these tax breaks and subsidies, rebates etc.

Now I’m not saying I’m against Solar, Wind or electric cars, but I am against giving big breaks and advantages to the wealthy. They don’t need the breaks.

If left alone market forces will bring about Solar and wind and electric cars, people will flock to pay less for a better product, or in the case of power simply pay less.
The day a power company does the math and sees that they will make more money with Solar farms than they will with a power plant is the day they start laying panels, and if they don’t, fine. Form your own company, lay panels and sell it on the open market for just a tiny bit less than the power company with plants can and you’ll sell all you have.

If you believe it won’t happen without government pressures, the way forward is not to have all these complex subsidies and plans that vary from one place to the next etc. The way forward is for the government to slowly make fossil fuels more expensive than alternatives.

Things like making natural gas stoves in houses illegal is at best silly. And I’m uncomfortable with what I consider Government overreach, is not being allowed to have a leather belt or shoes next?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It is most boats and why I think surely for at least sail boats they will go electric.
However that center console won’t. My last boat was a 21’ CC, it had a 175 HP motor and could have used more, and carried over 100 gls of gas.
If it were electric that would probably equate to 10 gls of gas, and that wouldn’t be enough.
Maybe one day, but not anytime soon.

Gotcha. I was thinking about the ones you see just puttering around a lake fishing. But I guess everyone wants to go fast. Not my area of expertise in boats. Never owned anything aside from monohulls, catamarans and RIBs.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What do they sell it for?
Then consider that the delivery system they pay for, but you don’t when you sell it back, they carry all the expenses, you don’t.
It would be like paying $1 a gl for milk from the milk man, but if you have a cow he has to buy your milk and pay $1. Sounds even but of course it’s not, the real cost of milk isn’t milk, it’s the truck that delivers it and payroll taxes and wages, and Insurence etc. etc. cost of milk may only be .10c

The fallacy is of course not understanding who will pay for the upkeep of that grid, all users will of course, but all users don’t have Solar arrays that they can use to force a utility to pay more for power than it costs them to generate.
So who wins? The rich guy who has a private house and Solar. Who loses? The poor guy who doesn’t, because they both will pay the additional cost that will be passed into the price of electricity.
It’s really similar to the electric car thing, they pay nothing for the upkeep of the roads and bridges etc. Who does is the poor who can’t afford a new electric car, so the poor get to pay for the upkeep of the transportation infrastructure, and the wealthy get a free ride.

I have just been astonished that the same groups that push for homeless reform etc are the ones that push for these subsidies etc., not realizing or more likely want them to subsidize the wealthy and leave the poor out, cause they are most often not poor themselves.
That or they are just following whatever Social media says and are incapable of independent thought? It’s not hard at all to see who wins with these tax breaks and subsidies, rebates etc.

Now I’m not saying I’m against Solar, Wind or electric cars, but I am against giving big breaks and advantages to the wealthy. They don’t need the breaks.

If left alone market forces will bring about Solar and wind and electric cars, people will flock to pay less for a better product, or in the case of power simply pay less.
The day a power company does the math and sees that they will make more money with Solar farms than they will with a power plant is the day they start laying panels, and if they don’t, fine. Form your own company, pay panels and sell it on the open market for just a tiny bit less than the power company with plants can and you’ll sell all you have.

If you believe it won’t happen without government pressures, the way forward is not to have all these complex subsidies and plans that vary from one place to the next etc. The way forward is for the government to slowly make fossil fuels more expensive than alternatives.

Things like making natural gas stoves in houses illegal is at best silly. And I’m uncomfortable with what I consider Government overreach, is not being allowed to have a leather belt or shoes next?

That

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

... It’s really similar to the electric car thing, they pay nothing for the upkeep of the roads and bridges etc. Who does is the poor who can’t afford a new electric car, so the poor get to pay for the upkeep of the transportation infrastructure, and the wealthy get a free ride ...

Some states are passing EV fees far in excess of what average motorists pay in gas taxes, potentially discouraging an important environmentally friendly technology.
Almost all states have gasoline taxes, to help pay for transportation projects, and electric vehicle owners avoid them because pure EVs don’t use gasoline.
Of the 26 states that currently impose EV fees, 11 charge more than the amount owners of similar gas-powered cars pay in gas taxes, and three charge more than twice the amount. And the trend is potentially for more EV fees: Among the 12 states considering EV fee proposals, 10 would have fees greater than what a driver on average would pay in gas taxes. Seven of those states would ratchet up the fees over time to twice the amount.

“Sudden spike of electric vehicle taxes punishes consumers, fails to fund highway road repairs”
Consumer Reports ☞ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org...elease/evfees/

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Canada generation of electricity in 2017 was;
Hydro - 60%
Non Hydro renewable - 7%
Nuclear - 15%
Fossil - 19%

So if you include Nuclear energy production the total was closer to 82% renewable in 2017.

I would argue that renewable energy production has increased dramatically since 2017 with a large increase in solar and wind installations.

The last time I drove across western Canada (2 yrs. ago) I was struck by the increase in wind turbines that had been installed and the growth of wind farms is increasing every year.

Wind turbines are great for the wind turbine industry.

[DeepFrz]

Wind turbines have become the most economical way to generate electricity. Check it out.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Wind turbines have become the most economical way to generate electricity. Check it out.

citation please
I would have thought the oldest form of renewable energy source hydro would be cheaper than wind over the 100 year life of a hydro generator vs the estimated 20 year life of wind .

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Wind turbines have become the most economical way to generate electricity. Check it out.

I lived in a place with TONS of them, probably one of the first places modern ones starting popping up in the 90s, we still paid tons of electric, still had rolling blackouts and it wasn’t uncommon to see quite a few feathered and shut down for maintenance, and on occasion one on fire. Again they are great for the wind turbine industry and a giant banner for “we’re green” but that’s about it.