Inboard engines and a changing world

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Can those with scientific background here explain why a lead keel has not yet been converted to a large capacity battery? Or the sails made from solar EV cloth?

I could be wrong, but aren't lead batteries actually lead-acid, and more liquid than solid? Still the point remains - I'm sure that heavy lithium ion batteries could be built into the keel, sounds like an excellent idea, actually. Access would be terrible though.



And some people have experimented with flexible or rigid solar panels that double as sails. Sail magazine ran a print article about Beneteau refitting one of their Sense sailboats this way as an experiment. Can't find an online version though. I do think that's very much in the future, and would give sailboats enough electric power for anything (at least during the day)

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Europe loves RVs. We've done it in rental and they are all over the place. It's just a bit different from the US version of RVing. As long as you go small (truck camper or small Class C), you can take your US RV over with no significant issues. Biggest one is getting insurance that covers you in Europe but that's not huge. Otherwise, it's no different from boats crossing the pond in terms of electricity and propane.

Good info, and RVing could be an interesting way to travel the European countryside. I don't see how RVs would be advantageous for visiting the cities.

Eurail...unless you fit into a very specific niche...it's horribly expensive option. Much better to just buy tickets to your destination.

The prices don't seem that bad. For comparison, what does it cost to ship an RV over? Overnight fees, fuel, insurance?

We did the Eurail thing in 2008. It was a great 25 days, staying about 3 days per place. We're not spring chickens.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Good info, and RVing could be an interesting way to travel the European countryside. I don't see how RVs would be advantageous for visiting the cities.



The prices don't seem that bad. For comparison, what does it cost to ship an RV over? Overnight fees, fuel, insurance?

We did the Eurail thing in 2008. It was a great 25 days, staying about 3 days per place. We're not spring chickens.

Most major cities have camp sites in or near the city. Usually on public transit routes so easy access. Sometimes full blown resort style campgrounds other times a parking area with utilities. Particularly for the simpler places, it can be cheap to free. We stayed at a few that were free and others less than $10/night. We stayed a nice resort style in Munich during Oktoberfest for about $25/night.

Eurail works OK if you plan to travel every other day covering lots of miles but if you stay in a city for a week, move then stay in another for 4 days, etc...$1100 for a month is usually far more than just buying a one time ticket plus once you buy it, you don't get a refund if you decide to travel less. Also, if you want to cover long distances, low cost airfare will often be cheaper and save a lot of time (sleeper cars usually are an extra with eurrail passes negating the hotel savings)

Obviously, if you are going for a 2 week trip, shipping an RV doesn't make sense. You really need to be pushing those Schengen visa limits for it to make sense. Of course, similar to boats, the RV can stay longer.

Also, if you are comparing eurail to shipping an RV, you also need to throw in hotel/B&B/rental car/eating out vs in/etc... costs on the eurail to get an apples to apples comparison.

[bushytales]

Originally Posted by Chotu

As the march to switch to all electric motors for automobiles and trucks continues to accelerate, what will become of our boats?

Will diesel get cheap because the demand drops or will it become a high priced specialty fuel because no one makes it anymore?

What about propane cooktops? Gasoline for outboards? Heaters (diesel, propane, etc)?

People are moving away from these things and it's not slowing down. A lot of people are selling gas stations because they see the writing on the wall.

What do you think will happen to our boats, which mostly run on fossil fuels when not sailing?

I guess it will depend on how old you are...idont believe electricity will overpower diesel/petrol in the next 10-20 years....at my age (70) who cares...

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by bushytales

I guess it will depend on how old you are...idont believe electricity will overpower diesel/petrol in the next 10-20 years....at my age (70) who cares...

That’s probably a fair point as well. I’m looking at this from the 40s. Not the 70s. And I’m putting together a brand new boat. So I would like that it last my lifetime. I don’t want to have to change everything because the power sources change, Or be squeezed out by the seismic shift of the economics of fossil fuel that is on its Or be squeezed out by the seismic shift of the economics of fossil fuel that is on its way

I’m thinking the more autonomous I can make these systems, the less I will be affected by all of the change that is coming in the next few decades.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Most of Europe is not really RV country. Honestly, the way to see Europe is to get a Eurail pass, book a bunch of neat little hotels, pensions, B&Bs, and travel light. Rent a car when you want to take a rural detour or drive one of the scenic routes.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Chotu

... The reason I had started thinking about all of this is what happened with my RV. I was planning to put it on a boat and send it to Europe. You know, to see the things that you can’t see from a boat. I found out that I actually can’t even use my RV in a lot of Europe. It’s Diesel. It is prohibited from all of the major areas that you want to see. Not only that, the regulations vary from country to country and from city to city. There are Enormous fees and fines on anything that puts out any emissions. There are places where emissions aren’t even allowed. I believe London is like that.
All of these laws were set up for cars. They gave absolutely no thought to the small market of RVs when creating them. The boat market is even smaller. I think we’re going to get crushed by new regulations and changes in the world that move away from internal combustion.
As the automotive market changes, I'm thinking we will have to adapt, repower or pay through the nose for diesel.

You’re WAY overstating the emissions regulations.

London says toxic air pollution has fallen by roughly a third inside a central urban zone where drivers are required to meet specific emission standards or pay a daily fine. The city launched the Ultra Low Emission Zone in April.
All new diesel vans sold from September 2016 should meet the Euro 6 standard*.
ULEZ Vans, minibuses and more ➥ https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...e?intcmp=52212
Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) now operates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every day of the year within the same area of central London as the Congestion Charge. Most vehicles, including cars and vans, need to meet the ULEZ emissions standards or their drivers must pay a daily charge to drive within the zone.
£12.50 for most vehicle types, including cars, motorcycles and vans (up to and including 3.5 tonnes)
➥ https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...-emission-zone


*Euro 6" The Euro 6 standard was introduced in September 2015, and all mass-produced cars sold from this date need to meet these emissions requirements. The aim of Euro 6 is to reduce levels of harmful car and van exhaust emissions, both in petrol and diesel cars.This includes nitrogen oxide (NOx), carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (THC and NMHC) and particulate matter (PM), which is basically soot from diesel cars.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by psk125

Solar? Worked for these guys:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tûranor_PlanetSolar

Worked for them but it was on a Euro 15 million multihull with giant deck space for solar panels. I think this is a little beyond the budget for most CF members.



Seriously, that example is extreme but is very representative of the current state of electric and solar on boats. Yes it can be done but at a significant penalty either in cost or performance (mainly range).


Range and recharging is also the weak point of EV on the road. Electric will work quite well for local errands but is still a very long way from being viable for long distance driving.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Chotu

As the march to switch to all electric motors for automobiles and trucks continues to accelerate, what will become of our boats?

Will diesel get cheap because the demand drops or will it become a high priced specialty fuel because no one makes it anymore?

What about propane cooktops? Gasoline for outboards? Heaters (diesel, propane, etc)?

People are moving away from these things and it's not slowing down. A lot of people are selling gas stations because they see the writing on the wall.

What do you think will happen to our boats, which mostly run on fossil fuels when not sailing?

There will always be a need for portable fuels, for some things they are the only possible way to make certain things work.

In the long run all things using fuels will become a lot more efficient.

For cruising I expect engines to become a lot smaller to increase efficiency but there will electric boosters for when high power is needed for a short or not so short period and for getting in and out of the marina without even starting the engine.

Eventually all liquid fuels will be synthetic. Hydrocarbons and ammonia can be made out of thin air when you can use electrical energy with a free hand. What fuel comes to dominate will depend on the economics.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I couldn't agree more with you. However, times are changing. Look at all the new electric only vehicles getting ready to roll out of Detroit. Ford is abandoning a lot of models and putting out electric cars and the f150 which will probably go electric soon enough.

I'm seeing boats as a forgotten point in these changes.

Electric makes no sense for driving cross country or cruising. (My opinion). Still, there are huge market shifts underway.

We rely on automotive products and fuel for our boats. These are changing at a blistering pace.

Also, lots of gas stations up for sale.

It seems that the Europeans are already working on this. Several articles online about Torqueedo scaling up. Still a while out but certainly being worked on.

[Marvs]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Problem with the UK is it is VERY different compared to the US in his very small it is and how what industry it has operates, many things that work great in the UK just don’t/won’t work in a expansive industry heavy US.

The diesel thing just shows the laws and opinions are being formed by people who don’t understand the subject, for economy diesel is really the way to go.

Had a girlfriend who a old MBZ diesel wagon, thing had who knows how many miles on it, still got super good economy, didn’t really have any real issues and she ended up getting rid of it because she just wanted something else, she probably would still be driving it today if not for cosmetic/features reasons, PLUS the thing could have run on bio diesel if she wanted to.

Check this thing out, sexy design, 200mph, 0-60 in 3.7, and 57MPG!
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...iesel-supercar

Right now, good Engneering and diesel are the way to go.

Diesel will be with us for many years yet. Electric power is a very limited solution and a problem as we still need to produce the power somewhere. Solar panels are very dirty when you calculate end of life emissions, so are limited to things such as sailboats and such that are truly off grid. Unless we see a breakthrough in the scientific community we are stuck with ice for the foreseeable future. Better to improve the efficiency of the equipment we use now and take lessons from some sailors. Simplify your life, use less, pollute less

[Whomda]

I looked for a time at electric engines to replace diesels in my boat for one major selfish reason: maintenance.

The number of spare things I have to carry for my engines (and I have two) is quite large, and I always feel like I don't have enough. I have many fuel filters (each engine takes two different types), oil filters, impellers, belts, and just in case spare water pump, alternator, etc. Regular maintenance includes 4 oil changes (two engines, two saildrives), 2 coolant flushes, 4 fuel filters + bleeding, cleaning water intake, etc.

When I even look at the engine, it looks delicate as hell from a "what can break" standpoint -- multiple wires, belts, multiple water flows (sea water, coolant, and hot water heater return), fuel flows -- all of which can be blocked or leak.
Indeed over time I have had blockages in both the sea water flow and in the fuel line flow.

Just the fact that I have to trust whatever shows up from seawater kind of blows my mind. I dislike any thru hull for obvious safety reasons, and the engine one is pretty large, but beyond that I don't trust the various sea critters to do me the favor of avoiding my sea water inputs. My strainers don't stay clean for long.

For these reasons I can't wait for a credible electric option. Gone are filters, oil changes, belts, the entire fuel system including the tanks. I could carry a huge amount of battery power for the weight of the fuel tanks and engine.

Sure, it's not magic, there's still a saildrive sitting in the water, that still needs lubrication and service. Electric motors are not totally maintenance free (although pretty close to zero when compared to a diesel). Electric generation from the missing alternators needs to be made up, and obviously if it's replaced even partially by a generator than the whole point is broken, as the generator needs all the fuel related maintenance.

But I can't wait.

[Marvs]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Can those with scientific background here explain why a lead keel has not yet been converted to a large capacity battery? Or the sails made from solar EV cloth?

To be very simple about it. Cost and efficiency. Flexible solar panels are problematic, and the keel is not Serviceable . You already have a very efficient and mildly polluting mode of transportation. Better to keep it that way

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Marvs.

Diesel will be with us for many years yet. Electric power is a very limited solution and a problem as we still need to produce the power somewhere. Solar panels are very dirty when you calculate end of life emissions ...

FWIW: Saudi Aramco, for instance, expects global oil demand to plateau in late 2030s. Additionally, Saudi Aramco also offered an alternative long-term outlook, where oil demand peaks a decade or more earlier.
No - solar panels are NOT "very dirty" when you perform a lifetime assessment.

[Cheechako]

Well, the boating community will disappear... and is, it's a former world luxury. But those left with modern batteries will burn to the waterline eventually anyway.

[thannever]

Solar hot water is easier than solar electric. The most difficult part of elec propulsion on sailboats is siting enough panels. R&D on PV sails is ongoing and could be a large part of the solution. Another big part is expectations. If you are cruising, how important is getting to your destination this week rathet than next week. Of course, the other problem is that the sunnker destinations will become more crowded.