Inboard engines and a changing world

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Exactly. So if there is no demand from the grid, the PV gen has nowhere to go, so it doesn't.

Not arguing with you, just sayin...

No demand, little electrons don't move.

Nothing gets measured.

Have you ever witnessed a working grid with zero demand?



At the end of 2017, CA had >11MW of solar, I doubt there has ever been less than that demand.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by OldMan

Have you ever witnessed a working grid with zero demand?



At the end of 2017, CA had >11MW of solar, I doubt there has ever been less than that demand.

possibly in downtown Bakersfield . At 3 in the morning

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by newhaul

possibly in downtown Bakersfield . At 3 in the morning

nope....all those Ring Cameras at the front doors are transmitting those breaking into houses!


But, you are correct, solar panels are not contributing anything to the grid at 3am in Bakersfield.

[Buzzman]

Yeah, I'm not arguing that batteries aren't an issue. In fact, my first comment said as much.

What I'm attempting to get across, perhaps inadequately, is that the old 'standard shape' blocks of lead and plastic are not the only way a battery can be configured.

For example, the LiFePO batts are usually made up from small (I think 3.2V) cylindrical cells like the 18650 size which is 18mm diam by 65mm long. Stack two and it's only 36mm high, but in 650mm that's 20 batts.

So you can fit a lot of them into a relatively small, and relatively compact space, that doesn't otherwise interfere with the operation of the boat or its functions.

So, for example, a cockpit floor might be 1.3m long by 900mm wide. That's (very) roughly, about 2000 cells.

I can't do the math to figure out what that is in terms of Amph, but the point is it's in an area that is underutilised, and therefore frees up the chunky block of space the FLA used to take up.

The smaller footprint of the electric motor also takes up less space.

In smaller yachts, up to 28', even a one or two-cyl diesel takes up a lot of space and effectively blocks off the under cockpit area.

While I do accept that batt cap to go any distance is never gong to be easy to accommodate, I'm not advocating that.

But in the scenario further up the thread where boat owners only use the motor for getting into or out of a slip, a compact electric motor and a cleverly designed battery could free up a lot of space that could be used for something else - like a built in fridge, or other storage.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by newhaul

You do realize that my state has almost as much land as your entire country with about double the population and washington isnt the biggest in area or population . What works for your sub tropical wont work so good for the usa .

Are you sure you meant to say that? Do you realise you are comparing Washington State to Australia?


Washington State: 184,827 km² Population: 7.536 million
Australia: 7,692,000 km² Population: 24.6 million

[Buzzman]

Wake up, Stu, EVERYTHING is bigger in America ... even when it's not..!

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Not so. It is also viable for the cruisers who are willing or almost willing to go engineless.

I am one of those folks.

If you actually stick with that resolution, then your well less than 1% of the population I’d guess, and probably won’t do that in a new boat and while not specifically stated my belief was that this discussion was about factory built new boats and not some home brew drive system.
We keep throwing 48 volts around and that’s ridiculously low for efficiency, electric cars and Hybrids operate at 300 to 400 volts I believe and AC current as I believe they have inverters. I know Prius does so I assume electric cars do too.
It’s cars we need to look to, to get an idea of what is realistic, not mile for mile of course but hours of operation ought to be similar.
I believe a typical electric car’s battery is about 85 KWH and that gives it about a four to five hour range at highway speeds, then you need to replace the majority of that 85 KWH.
That is the problem, not batteries or motors or any of that, all that is solved, it’s off the shelf technology, the problem is how are you going to replace that 85 KWH?

You know that we have a member who is no one’s fool in all this kind of thing and he tried to go electric a couple of times I believe with I’m sure the idea of only a mile here and there no “real” motoring at all, and abandoned it for a sculling oar.

I believe a smart guy would keep the Diesel and just never use it, but even smart, experienced people with good Solar and knowledge about it can’t quite get by on Solar alone in the colder months and run the engine to charge or a generator, and that’s using none of it for any propulsion at all.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by StuM

Are you sure you meant to say that? Do you realise you are comparing Washington State to Australia?


Washington State: 184,827 km² Population: 7.536 million
Australia: 7,692,000 km² Population: 24.6 million

no my fault . When I posted that I was also discussing off grid stuff with a guy in New Zealand

Side note we gained 120,000 people in the last 12 months

[Buzzman]

I actually tend to agree. The most widely available off the shelf electric motor is the Torqueedo (and the copies of it) all of which use a big, geared prop turned slowly and not using much power.

Sure there are now motors that can equate to 20HP ICE or whatever, but the most common electric around is the small outboard-style.

On a recent rally in Narooma, NSW, one of the smaller boats had one such engine/motor to propel it across the Inlet and back on a day trip. Probably around 45mins run time all in. It coped.

But I wouldn't have wanted to go a 2nd time without a recharge..

But equate that to the smaller sailboat, under 28', into and out of the slip (so maybe 10-15mins of motoring either end of a daysail), and it's similar usage.

The Torqueedo was the one with the battery on the head unit. About the size of a biscuit tin. Sorta 4" x 4" x 12". Not that large, really.

First time I'd actually seen one used as intended (i.e. not on a stand at a motor show or in a YouTube video).

Impressively quiet, but definitely hull speed only (which was fine for the displacement hull it was mounted on.

Didn't go any quicker than my sailboat with a British Seagull mounted on it (but that was overheating due to a cracked water jacket, so no finger pointing). It kept running the whole way there and back, provided I didn't use more than 3/4 throttle.

From one extreme to the other. 10:1 oiletrol, noisy, smoky Seagull, or an electric, silent, smokeless Torqueedo.

Was wishing I had the Torqueedo, to be honest! lol

[Chotu]

"Under Mayor Eric Garcetti, the city, surrounding communities, companies and other entities are part of a Transportation Electrification Partnership with specific goals for the next nine years, laid out as the Zero Emissions 2028 Roadmap. Targets include 30% of L.A.-area personal passenger vehicles on the road (and 80% of new vehicles sold) being electric and ensuring that 40% of commercial truck trips, particularly those from the sprawling ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, are exhaust-free. Electric fueling infrastructure is key to hitting those goals, so the plan includes installing 84,000 public chargers and up to 95,000 for fleets and goods movement." - Forbes Magazine, today.

Tell me change isn't coming.

Demand for fossil fuels is going to tank.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Chotu

"Under Mayor Eric Garcetti, the city, surrounding communities, companies and other entities are part of a Transportation Electrification Partnership with specific goals for the next nine years, laid out as the Zero Emissions 2028 Roadmap. Targets include 30% of L.A.-area personal passenger vehicles on the road (and 80% of new vehicles sold) being electric and ensuring that 40% of commercial truck trips, particularly those from the sprawling ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, are exhaust-free. Electric fueling infrastructure is key to hitting those goals, so the plan includes installing 84,000 public chargers and up to 95,000 for fleets and goods movement." - Forbes Magazine, today.

Tell me change isn't coming.

Demand for fossil fuels is going to tank.

change is coming its called a recall vote.

[Craig_B]

Originally Posted by Craig_B

I have read the first page of this post and a few here and there on following pages so this may have already been covered. But.


Gas and diesel powered vehicles will be here for an very long time yet.
The electric market was growing but still has a Long way to go.


The biggest factor here is once you remove the government subsidies from the manufacturing end and the purchasing end electric cars still cost More to produce than the selling price.
Government is already starting to remove subsidies here and I suspect around the globe as well.

Electric etc may one day surpass traditional energy sources but for the near future its still all unicorns and rainbows.

To follow up on my original point the Ontario government has removed the subsidies for both manufacturer and purchaser of electric/hybrid vehicles and compared to the previous years sales the market has dropped 55℅


Any market that drops 55℅ once its no longer funded by the unwitting taxpayer is not a viable one in my opinion .
Electric may be the future but its still a Long way off.

Very informative video here:
https://youtu.be/M3tEJXtnTR

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Craig_B

To follow up on my original point the Ontario government has removed the subsidies for both manufacturer and purchaser of electric/hybrid vehicles and compared to the previous years sales the market has dropped 55℅

Any market that drops 55℅ is not a viable one in my opinion .
Electric may be the future but its still a Long way off.

Look at all the numbers: how many EVs and hybrids are being sold, despite the incentives dropping away? Also, there will probably be a small rebound from that drop; you can still save a ton of money if you drive lots of miles per year by going to hybrid or electric, even without incentives.

The market for EVs has been established. The prices will soon drop significantly as production improves, and a flood of Chinese-made EVs hit our shores. I still feel comfortable predicting that by 2030, there will be more EVs and hybrids sold than ICE-powered cars.

[Craig_B]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Look at all the numbers: how many EVs and hybrids are being sold, despite the incentives dropping away? Also, there will probably be a small rebound from that drop; you can still save a ton of money if you drive lots of miles per year by going to hybrid or electric, even without incentives.
.

Look at the numbers? I did.

There are 55℅ Less cars being sold.
Starting with a Very Small market to start off with.



And that trend will increase especially if the manufacturers attempt to sell their cars at Real profitable market prices.



As for the chinese? Not likely they will be entering the North American market any time soon.

Technology components maybe. Actual cars not so much.
They don't even come close to meeting modern safety standards.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Craig_B

Look at the numbers? I did.

There are 55℅ Less cars being sold.
Starting with a Very Small market to start off with.

No, you've just quoted a percentage. How many vehicles, exactly? Secondly, that percentage drop is the immediate response to the incentive cuts. There will be a bounceback to some extent.

And that trend will increase especially if the manufacturers attempt to sell their cars at Real profitable market prices.

The profit margin on all cars these days is pretty thin. Once EVs are being built in bigger numbers, their prices will drop. Not counting batteries, there's no reason why EVs should cost more than ICE-powered vehicles to make.

As for the chinese? Not likely they will be entering the North American market any time soon.

I wouldn't bet against them. Warren Buffett isn't.