Inboard engines and a changing world

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

No, you've just quoted a percentage. How many vehicles, exactly? Secondly, that percentage drop is the immediate response to the incentive cuts. There will be a bounceback to some extent.

The profit margin on all cars these days is pretty thin. Once EVs are being built in bigger numbers, their prices will drop. Not counting batteries, there's no reason why EVs should cost more than ICE-powered vehicles to make.

Electric cars should be cheaper to manufacture than ICE cars in similar volume. You know as well as I that the reason electric car sales cannot approach ICE sales is due to insufficient recharge infrastructure and hour+ long refill times. Unless and until an electric car can get its energy storage (battery) filled from empty to full in 5-10 minutes the ICE will be dominant. No amount of subsidies will change that.

Electrics are fine for urban commuters. But there are other more efficient transportation options in urban areas than individual autos.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

You know as well as I that the reason electric car sales cannot approach ICE sales is due to insufficient recharge infrastructure and hour+ long refill times. Unless and until an electric car can get its energy storage (battery) filled from empty to full in 5-10 minutes the ICE will be dominant. No amount of subsidies will change that.

Electrics are fine for urban commuters. But there are other more efficient transportation options in urban areas than individual autos.

As per one of my links, ICE car sales are already starting to decline, and more than one big manufacturer is easing itself out of just making personal vehicles.

No disagreement that range and charging infrastructure are the biggist hurdles to wider adoption of EVs. (But that doesn't apply to hybrids.) I don't agree that a fast-charge system is necessary for wider adoption, though it wouldn't hurt. There are other options, like standardized battery packs or small trailers that can be changed quickly when necessary (eg long-distance driving).

I agree that other options will eat away at the personal car's dominance in major urban areas.

[JimJohnston]

Originally Posted by Craig_B

The biggest factor here is once you remove the government subsidies from the manufacturing end and the purchasing end electric cars still cost More to produce than the selling price.
Government is already starting to remove subsidies here and I suspect around the globe as well.

.

Perhaps in the not too distant future we will see a "flip" in the economy when the subsidies, by way of tax benefits and government grants, are removed from the oil and gas industry. When that happens, in concert with a greater effort from the auto industry towards EV's the attractiveness of EV's will likely eclipse the ICEs

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by JimJohnston

Perhaps in the not too distant future we will see a "flip" in the economy when the subsidies, by way of tax benefits and government grants, are removed from the oil and gas industry. When that happens, in concert with a greater effort from the auto industry towards EV's the attractiveness of EV's will likely eclipse the ICEs

that may happen in the future but not likely in my lifetime. ( I expect to live another 40 + years)

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by JimJohnston

Perhaps in the not too distant future we will see a "flip" in the economy when the subsidies, by way of tax benefits and government grants, are removed from the oil and gas industry. When that happens, in concert with a greater effort from the auto industry towards EV's the attractiveness of EV's will likely eclipse the ICEs

I keep hearing about these subsidies to oil and gas companies. Can anyone name one or two of these subsidies?

[cj88]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I keep hearing about these subsidies to oil and gas companies. Can anyone name one or two of these subsidies?

Here's a simple overview.

Energy subsidy

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by cj88

Here's a simple overview.



Energy subsidy

It’s true that a few countries subsidize the cost of fuel to really poor consumers. Most of these have rationing to control consumption. But other tax payers pay the cost. That doesn’t happen for 90% of the consumed oil and gas. In Canada the government charges significant royalties on crude produced there. In Europe and many other countries as much as 50% of the cost paid by consumers for fuel is taxes.

By a huge margin oil and gas is a net contributor to the coffers of governments around the world. There is no net subsidy. The idea that removing subsidies for poor people would reduce pollution is just silly. All it would do us kill a lot of poor people. The rich would still get their fuel.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I keep hearing about these subsidies to oil and gas companies. Can anyone name one or two of these subsidies?

this article covers both sides of the subsidy coin. ( to varying degrees .)

https://www.insidesources.com/us-sti...rly-7-billion/
In the U.S.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I keep hearing about these subsidies to oil and gas companies. Can anyone name one or two of these subsidies?

Intangible Drilling Costs Deduction (26 U.S. Code § 263. Active)
Percentage Depletion (26 U.S. Code § 613. Active)
Credit for Clean Coal Investment Internal Revenue Code § 48A (Active) and 48B (Inactive).
Nonconventional Fuels Tax Credit (Internal Revenue Code § 45.
Last In, First Out Accounting (26 U.S. Code § 472. Active).
Foreign Tax Credit (26 U.S. Code § 901. Active).
Master Limited Partnerships (Internal Revenue Code § 7704. Indirect. Active).
Domestic Manufacturing Deduction (IRC §199. Indirect. Inactive).

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fac...societal-costs

[a64pilot]

[QUOTE=Craig_B;3038790]To follow up on my original point the Ontario government has removed the subsidies for both manufacturer and purchaser of electric/hybrid vehicles and compared to the previous years sales the market has dropped 55℅


Any market that drops 55℅ once its no longer funded by the unwitting taxpayer is not a viable one in my opinion .
Electric may be the future but its still a Long way off.

Very informative video here:
https://youtu.be/M3tEJXtnTR

It will however spring back, they are in fact much less expensive to build and maintain and operate than an ICE vehicle, so much so that I believe you will see quite large layoffs in auto manufacturing, and there will be many, many mechanics looking for work.
They will cause a rather massive unemployment, think about how many people work in auto care in one fashion or the other now, parts houses will largely go away as will repair ships. Body work will stay of course as will tire shops.
Thankfully that will not happen overnight, and is at least one thing that the EV fan boys don’t think of.

However as there become many more available different vehicles and hopefully if the Government will stay out of it, then the same forces that make everything else inexpensive will also work for electric auto’s.
The difference in parts count is huge, think of how many sub systems an ICE engine has from cooling systems, exhaust systems, starters, alternators, cooling pumps, radiators and massive pollution controls, transmissions etc that electric doesn’t have.

The day after I buy a house, I’ll probably be looking at a good used one myself, the used market is so incredibly soft that they depreciate to 1/3 of new price in three years, at least the leaf does, and that huge depreciation has to be from the government messing with pricing up front.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I keep hearing about these subsidies to oil and gas companies. Can anyone name one or two of these subsidies?

I'll give you just one: the environmental and health costs from extracting, transporting, storing and burning fossil fuels are not accounted for in its price to users.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'll give you just one: the environmental and health costs from extracting, transporting, storing and burning fossil fuels are not accounted for in its price to users.

link to the proof that supports your assertion

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'll give you just one: the environmental and health costs from extracting, transporting, storing and burning fossil fuels are not accounted for in its price to users.

Everyone keeps saying the total cost to burning fossil fuels isn’t factored in?

Can you tell me anything at all the the “total cost” is factored in? To include the manufacturing of EV’s and the electricity to charge them.
You do know that in the US the entire total transportation sector including planes trains and automobiles and the huge numbers of OTR trucks, ships etc emit 1% less greenhouse gasses than is emitted by the production of electricity?

So the “total cost” of absolutely nothing at all is included in, from growing food to making pencils.
And you want to greatly increase electrical production?
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Everyone keeps saying the total cost to burning fossil fuels isn’t factored in?

Can you tell me anything at all the the “total cost” is factored in? To include the manufacturing of EV’s and the electricity to charge them.

So the “total cost” of absolutely nothing at all is included in, from growing food to making pencils.


And you want to greatly increase electrical production?
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions

Of course not every externality is perfectly captured in price schemes. BUT - we've been over the impacts of different sources of energy, and many (eg nuclear) have less impact per unit of energy - death, illness, pollution, etc - that fossil fuels do.

IF every type of energy was priced according to all its costs, including externalities, then fossil fuels would not be as attractive to use, and there would be a price incentive to expand the use of other sources.

Since we don't, and fossil fuels are so common, convenient, energy-dense and currently cheap ... of course no one wants to switch away from them.

[skenn_ie]

I don't think any rational person considers that battery or solar power will be a serious contender in long-distance transportation in the near future. It can be used for short trips, particularly in daylight hours. However, we should try to reduce our power use, on land and at sea. Even if you discount Global Warming, I, for one, want to breath clean air and drink clean water.