Inboard engines and a changing world

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Well...Duh. Another thing that nobody's asking to do. Where do you come up with this stuff?

perhaps you should take a new look at the current adopt a that are pushing the climate alarmism agenda.

And this is much different than the run of the mill agw agenda.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... Well...Duh. Another thing that nobody's asking to do. Where do you come up with this stuff?

You think it's bad here?


Here's a section of dialogue I'm having with 'Carl' about a documentary on a denier site.

(in answer to a question I asked)

Carl:
Sure, overpopulation...that is why they want you to eat your kids...look up holodomor...food famine happens from cold and wet, not hot and dusty...the people running those sites you claim also gave reports on JFK/911/Iraq...do not be told truth, use your eyes, ears and brain!
You appear fixated though!

Me:

@carl bole Uh...no, care to guess again?


Who wants 'you to eat your kids'? Do you see what you're writing? Or how ridiculous it looks?


Holodomor? You're talking about the Ukrainian word or the famine instituted in Ukraine by the Russians in 1932-33? Whichever, famine happens because people don't have enough to eat. The reasons for that are manifold, and can be artificial or natural, and caused by a multitude of different things.


If you want to learn how to not be "told the truth", indeed use your eyes, ears and brain, and begin with a little self-examination.


I am fixated but not in the way you seem to think. I do know how to tell the difference in fact and fiction, and know the steps to take when I'm unsure, and am 'fixated' on using that ability to understand the world as best as it can be.


With you're --- well it is a bit beyond characterization -- so we'll just say 'post', you don't seem to have brought anything relevant to the table, so I'll suggest you look up 'psychological projection' in the context of your opinion of me being 'fixated'.

Carl:
Deflection is a symptom of insanity...Answer one of my questions instead of dancing around...I answered your question, and I can produce evidence from YOUR climate tards they want to kill the population!


Interestingly enough, the maker of the documentary is actually involved in the conversation and seems to be listening to logic, at least so far. Others too, are asking the right questions (i.e. why do you think that?, show me some proof, how do I find out?, etc) so there actually is some reason to engage, though I think you already know that.


Of course, there'll always be plenty of 'Carls' in the world...

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

You think it's bad here?


Here's a section of dialogue I'm having with 'Carl' about a documentary on a denier site.

(in answer to a question I asked)

Carl:
Sure, overpopulation...that is why they want you to eat your kids...look up holodomor...food famine happens from cold and wet, not hot and dusty...the people running those sites you claim also gave reports on JFK/911/Iraq...do not be told truth, use your eyes, ears and brain!
You appear fixated though!

Me:

@carl bole Uh...no, care to guess again?


Who wants 'you to eat your kids'? Do you see what you're writing? Or how ridiculous it looks?


Holodomor? You're talking about the Ukrainian word or the famine instituted in Ukraine by the Russians in 1932-33? Whichever, famine happens because people don't have enough to eat. The reasons for that are manifold, and can be artificial or natural, and caused by a multitude of different things.


If you want to learn how to not be "told the truth", indeed use your eyes, ears and brain, and begin with a little self-examination.


I am fixated but not in the way you seem to think. I do know how to tell the difference in fact and fiction, and know the steps to take when I'm unsure, and am 'fixated' on using that ability to understand the world as best as it can be.


With you're --- well it is a bit beyond characterization -- so we'll just say 'post', you don't seem to have brought anything relevant to the table, so I'll suggest you look up 'psychological projection' in the context of your opinion of me being 'fixated'.

Carl:
Deflection is a symptom of insanity...Answer one of my questions instead of dancing around...I answered your question, and I can produce evidence from YOUR climate tards they want to kill the population!


Interestingly enough, the maker of the documentary is actually involved in the conversation and seems to be listening to logic, at least so far. Others too, are asking the right questions (i.e. why do you think that?, show me some proof, how do I find out?, etc) so there actually is some reason to engage, though I think you already know that.


Of course, there'll always be plenty of 'Carls' in the world...

Ok so you poke the bear on multiple forums what dies that have to do at all with electric propulsion on boats

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Ok so you poke the bear on multiple forums what dies that have to do at all with electric propulsion on boats

About, whatever it means, as much as this...

Originally Posted by newhaul

perhaps you should take a new look at the current adopt a that are pushing the climate alarmism agenda.

And this is much different than the run of the mill agw agenda.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Driving today I was thinking of an interesting philosophical and physics related point.

I was at a very busy intersection watching all the cars going by me in the other direction. Tired. Zoning out a bit at the light.

I realized what is an important thing about transportation, as it currently exists. It's horribly inefficient. The vast VAST amount of energy consumed moving people around isn't even movie people around. It's moving metal around!!

If you look at a highway, it's supposed to be a way to move people around from point a to point b. But there is relatively little human flesh being moved. It's all metal flowing by in that river.

That's a fundamental problem.

Driven (haha) by human nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV

[gmakhs]

My main concern with electric is that is not water proof when diesel is ..
There are ways to work it around but your batteries will always be a suspect in sinking conditions when the diesel will go on and on even submerged (as far as the intake is above the water )

The electric with solar introduce a lot of weight and windage so is not really possible .

Electric for now is hardly possible in small boats (maybe like mine that is 26 f) that they don't need a lot of KW and most of the time no need to motor so you have time to regenerate with solar or wind .

I have been delivering bigger boats on passages (the one I am.currently working on is from Australia to Slovenia ) we have 2 KW of solar and I don't see how we could run an electric motor all the times we needed the diesel .

And not talk about the cannals that needs you to motor over 10 hours per time for 2 days, not time to recharge .

Anyway sailboats have a very small impact on fuel.consuption and on pollution our motors are small (some a lot smaller that the normal cars motor ) and most sailboats don't use the motor 80% of the time .

Even now with that delivery, and with the doldrums in 4 months we motored 120 hours 20 of them in the Suez canal , that's the motoring for 10.000 miles , other boats may motor more for that trip but the number will still be too low .

I like self sefficient electric idea just for the cause of getting provisioning diesel off my mind , but I really don't see any profit to convert now or in the near future.

It's all a dream , if you care for the environment just do t use the motor, cheaper and simpler.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

... 1) You do know that in the US the entire total transportation sector including planes trains and automobiles and the huge numbers of OTR trucks, ships etc emit 1% less greenhouse gasses than is emitted by the production of electricity? ...
... 2) And you want to greatly increase electrical production?
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions

1. Not according to the link, that you provided. The transportation sector generates the largest share (28.9%) of greenhouse gas emissions. Electricity production generates the second largest (27.5%) share of greenhouse gas emissions.

2. Yes, more clean(er) electricity.

[transmitterdan]

Which EV system for a boat will still be desirable on the used market in 5 years? Any tech that has 0.001% market penetration can be expected to improve over time. Such improvement usually leave early adopters with obsolete systems in a very short time.

[GordMay]

The technology adoption life cycle, originally created by Everett Rogers, is illustrated as a bell curve, as shown at bottom.

Adopter Categories:

Innovators are eager to try new ideas, to the point where their venturesomeness almost becomes an obsession. Innovators’ interest in new ideas leads them out of a local circle of peers and into social relationships more cosmopolite than normal. Usually, innovators have substantial financial resources, and the ability to understand and apply complex technical knowledge. While others may consider the innovator to be rash or daring, it is the hazardous risk-taking that is of salient value to this type of individual. The innovator is also willing to accept the occasional setback when new ideas prove unsuccessful.

Early adopters tend to be integrated into the local social system more than innovators. The early adopters are considered to be localites, versus the cosmopolite innovators. People in the early adopter category seem to have the greatest degree of opinion leadership in most social systems. They provide advice and information sought by other adopters about an innovation. Change agents will seek out early adopters to help speed the diffusion process. The early adopter is usually respected by his or her peers and has a reputation for successful and discrete use of new ideas.

Members of the early majority category will adopt new ideas just before the average member of a social system. They interact frequently with peers, but are not often found holding leadership positions. As the link between very early adopters and people late to adopt, early majority adopters play an important part in the diffusion process. Their innovation-decision time is relatively longer than innovators and early adopters, since they deliberate some time before completely adopting a new idea. Seldom leading, early majority adopters willingly follow in adopting innovations.

The late majority are a skeptical group, adopting new ideas just after the average member of a social system. Their adoption may be borne out of economic necessity and in response to increasing social pressure. They are cautious about innovations, and are reluctant to adopt until most others in their social system do so first. An innovation must definitely have the weight of system norms behind it to convince the late majority. While they may be persuaded about the utility of an innovation, there must be strong pressure from peers to adopt.

Laggards are traditionalists and the last to adopt an innovation. Possessing almost no opinion leadership, laggards are localite to the point of being isolates compared to the other adopter categories. They are fixated on the past, and all decisions must be made in terms of previous generations. Individual laggards mainly interact with other traditionalists. An innovation finally adopted by a laggard may already be rendered obsolete by more recent ideas already in use by innovators. Laggards are likely to be suspicious not only of innovations, but of innovators and change agents as well.

[transmitterdan]

Gord,

Your graph and accompanying theory can only be validated in this case when there is wide adoption and the production costs are settled down. So calling people luddites at this stage is a bit premature I think.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Gord,

Your graph and accompanying theory can only be validated in this case when there is wide adoption and the production costs are settled down. So calling people luddites at this stage is a bit premature I think.

I personally won't be doing that electric propulsion conversion . My diesel has a few thousand hours left.

Besides the fact i know how to make all of the bio fuels.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Which EV system for a boat will still be desirable on the used market in 5 years? Any tech that has 0.001% market penetration can be expected to improve over time. Such improvement usually leave early adopters with obsolete systems in a very short time.

Electric propulsion is pretty old tech. We have about 150 years of the electric motor, control systems are well-understood, and same for batteries.

Speaking personally, in the right situation (mostly daysailing and coastal, no offshore) I wouldn't be afraid of getting into electrical propulsion now. I expect that there's not much to go obsolete, and of course hot-solder types like us wouldn't have any issue making changes and updates.

I think the biggest drawback (boats or cars) remains the range of a practical battery bank.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Electric propulsion is pretty old tech. We have about 150 years of the electric motor, control systems are well-understood, and same for batteries.

Speaking personally, in the right situation (mostly daysailing and coastal, no offshore) I wouldn't be afraid of getting into electrical propulsion now. I expect that there's not much to go obsolete, and of course hot-solder types like us wouldn't have any issue making changes and updates.

I think the biggest drawback (boats or cars) remains the range of a practical battery bank.

For you it would be cheap easy and make sense. A min kota endura 30 trolling motor and a 50ah battery. And your good.

[Chotu]

Relevant to the discussion. Some battery progress.

Outperforms lithium and doesn't require heavy metals.

https://gizmodo.com/ibm-research-cre...1840535845/amp

[GordMay]

Young-hye Na, materials innovation manager for IBM Research’s battery division, says IBM has built prototype pouch battery cells in the lab, which give her group confidence that they could develop a commercial product, for limited applications (e.g. portable power tools) within one to two years. Developing the technology to compete with industry-standard lithium ions for electric vehicle powertrains will take, she says, a “longer time.”
The group has revealed precious little technical information, about their battery’s chemistry, configuration, or design (..."three new and different proprietary materials, which have never before been recorded as being combined in a battery"...).
IBM may sound optimistic about its breakthrough, but stories like this are nothing new.
☞ https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2...-free-battery/