Inboard engines and a changing world

[Marvs]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Marvs.

FWIW: Saudi Aramco, for instance, expects global oil demand to plateau in late 2030s. Additionally, Saudi Aramco also offered an alternative long-term outlook, where oil demand peaks a decade or more earlier.
No - solar panels are NOT "very dirty" when you perform a lifetime assessment.

I would disagree about the end of life emissions, unless we start mining the elements required in first world countries. China and some of the other countries are horrible with their methods. Lots of improving to do.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Indeed.


You’re WAY overstating the emissions regulations.

London says toxic air pollution has fallen by roughly a third inside a central urban zone where drivers are required to meet specific emission standards or pay a daily fine. The city launched the Ultra Low Emission Zone in April.
All new diesel vans sold from September 2016 should meet the Euro 6 standard*.
ULEZ Vans, minibuses and more ➥ https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...e?intcmp=52212
Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) now operates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every day of the year within the same area of central London as the Congestion Charge. Most vehicles, including cars and vans, need to meet the ULEZ emissions standards or their drivers must pay a daily charge to drive within the zone.
£12.50 for most vehicle types, including cars, motorcycles and vans (up to and including 3.5 tonnes)
➥ https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...-emission-zone


*Euro 6" The Euro 6 standard was introduced in September 2015, and all mass-produced cars sold from this date need to meet these emissions requirements. The aim of Euro 6 is to reduce levels of harmful car and van exhaust emissions, both in petrol and diesel cars.This includes nitrogen oxide (NOx), carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (THC and NMHC) and particulate matter (PM), which is basically soot from diesel cars.

Gord, I’m not really overstating it for my vehicle. That assumes 2015. My vehicle is nowhere near that. Ha ha

2002 Dodge Cummins turbo diesel 5.9. Emissions class one I believe. In any case, I am banned from most areas of Europe that are of interest. And you’re right, there are places you can pay the fee to be there. €12 a day. No matter if you are parked or driving or sitting at a campground for a week. That can add up. Some cases the fees are higher. I believe for my vehicle they were higher than what you are quoting.

Most of Germany is off-limits to my vehicle as well.

But in any case, this is our splitting hairs. The post is about boats. And about how things are changing and they are not changing slowly. They are changing pretty quickly.

Europe made no provisions for RVs or caravans. None. Boats are an even smaller market so I don’t see a lot of provisions being made for us either. I know a lot of you guys are a bit older than me, but things are going to be changing in my lifetime for sure. And I’d like to make sure my boat is able to keep up. That’s all.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Worked for them but it was on a Euro 15 million multihull with giant deck space for solar panels. I think this is a little beyond the budget for most CF members.

Seriously, that example is extreme but is very representative of the current state of electric and solar on boats. Yes it can be done but at a significant penalty either in cost or performance (mainly range).

When thinking about how this will all pan out in the next 20-30 years, though, it is relevant that someone (or actually many at the moment) have done this and proved it possible

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Gord, I’m not really overstating it for my vehicle. That assumes 2015. My vehicle is nowhere near that. Ha ha

Dodge Cummins turbo diesel 5.9.

Cool. I actually owned a Holiday Rambler with a Cummins diesel back in 2012 and the (European/Finnish) emissions based taxes were horrible already back then

Now I'm driving a Volvo V60 diesel/plug-in hybrid and it's in fact a very green car. At the moment, I'm waiting for info whether I can use Fortum's new renewable diesel in it, and if I can, even better.

With regard to the OP: what about the shipping industry? I see that sails and rotor sails are being tested but is there anything big happening on that front? I assume many recreational diesel providers work within the commercial industry as well (or mainly).

When thinking about our next boat, more and more I'm inclined to want something that can move by renewables (=mostly wind) even at low wind speeds.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Cool. I actually owned a Holiday Rambler with a Cummins diesel back in 2012 and the (European/Finnish) emissions based taxes were horrible already back then

Now I'm driving a Volvo V60 diesel/plug-in hybrid and it's in fact a very green car. At the moment, I'm waiting for info whether I can use Fortum's new renewable diesel in it, and if I can, even better.

With regard to the OP: what about the shipping industry? I see that sails and rotor sails are being tested but is there anything big happening on that front? I assume many recreational diesel providers work within the commercial industry as well (or mainly).

When thinking about our next boat, more and more I'm inclined to want something that can move by renewables (=mostly wind) even at low wind speeds.

I agree. A good sailing vessel will mostly solve the issues. Emphasis placed on good sailing (which is at odds with huge luxurious interiors) will do the trick.

[vpbarkley]

Cruising sailboats will become more electric centered and less diesel centered. Because electric is free, produced right on your boat and virtually maintenance free. Diesel is not. With current battery technology, high cost and low power density are the primary limitations. But, this is continually improving.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by vpbarkley

Cruising sailboats will become more electric centered and less diesel centered. Because electric is free, produced right on your boat and virtually maintenance free. Diesel is not. With current battery technology, high cost and low power density are the primary limitations. But, this is continually improving.

I’m setting up for a ton of solar (removable when not going distances or on the hook too) on my boat and I won’t even be able to run my AC while at sail/anchor
...and that’s just air conditioning!

How on earth are you going feed enough juice to spin a large motor that can move the whole vessel when even with modern panels we can’t even spin a AC compressor?

Also not free, pollution wise in the production and disposal of batteries and panels, or in the cost of said batteries and panels. It’s cool tech for sure, and I have some and will be adding more, but it’s not exactly a flux capacitor.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

What I see as a looming problem is the current electrical grid.

No-one likes to address this weakpoint. Sections of the US already experience rolling blackouts during times of peak demand.

For the foreseeable future electric cars etc are fine as a novelty, but in order to mainstream them, large changes will need to be made in the power generation and distribution grids globally.

I believe motor fuel use is 25 Million barrels of fuel per day.
Now I’ve not vetted that number, but to replace that amount of power with electricity is going to take a whole lot of Solar panels.
Every time people start up about how gasoline cars will be replaced in a couple of years I bring up the small fact that the average person uses more energy in their automobile than in their house, so with an electric automobile, Joe average will more than double his electric consumption. The fans like to simply ignore that, I mean everyone knows electricity just comes out of the wall, right?

Of course in my ignorance I believe that battery powered automobiles will be an interim step, with fuel cells being a large part of the eventual end.
The Japanese are not going for battery power, but fuel cells, and I tend to think of them as not being stupid.
Then Hyundai May build a fuel cell truck as well.

Without going heavy Nuclear I don’t see where enough electricity to replace fossil motor fuel will come from.

But one thing I’m sure of, I’m 60 years old, and I’ll be long dead before fossil fuels are gone, the idea of people selling gas stations because they fear they soon will be obsolete is silly in the extreme.
Maybe in some European city that will soon ban automobiles, then maybe a gas station would be in trouble, but not any normal one.

[vpbarkley]

Did I say there would be no diesel power?

As we bring more renewables online we need less power from diesel.

[newhaul]

The future of the ev market
And yes this is a real picture .

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

I’m setting up for a ton of solar (removable when not going distances or on the hook too) on my boat and I won’t even be able to run my AC while at sail/anchor
...and that’s just air conditioning!

How on earth are you going feed enough juice to spin a large motor that can move the whole vessel when even with modern panels we can’t even spin a AC compressor?

Also not free, pollution wise in the production and disposal of batteries and panels, or in the cost of said batteries and panels. It’s cool tech for sure, and I have some and will be adding more, but it’s not exactly a flux capacitor.

you mean Mr fusion right it feeds the flux capacitor which serves like a power distribution panel .

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

IEvery time people start up about how gasoline cars will be replaced in a couple of years I bring up the small fact that the average person uses more energy in their automobile than in their house, so with an electric automobile, Joe average will more than double his electric consumption. The fans like to simply ignore that, I mean everyone knows electricity just comes out of the wall, right?

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm thinking that by 2030, ICE will no longer be the dominant propulsion in urban personal vehicles. So a longer tail than a couple of years.

But there's a bunch of other changes that will also come over this period, including less reliance on personal vehicles through better urban design, alternatives like uber, car-sharing, and better intra- and inter-city transportation infrastructure. And maybe fuelcells will become commercially viable in this timeframe.

It seems likely that most EVs will charge at off-peak times, so it could be a matter of just running the existing generators for longer. Generating electricity at scale for EVs is more efficient overall than pouring gas into ICE-powered cars, and EVs have operating efficiencies like regenerative braking.

So, more going on than just replacing car gas with home-recharging an EV.

[Cheechako]

When your Tesla erupts in flames you step out and call 911. When your sailboat does....

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by vpbarkley

Cruising sailboats will become more electric centered and less diesel centered. Because electric is free, produced right on your boat and virtually maintenance free. Diesel is not. With current battery technology, high cost and low power density are the primary limitations. But, this is continually improving.

I agree, we have seen steady and continual improvement in both solar panel efficiency and battery storage. But these are incremental changes. The challenge is that the improvement trajectory must jump magnitudes if we are to approach the energy density of diesel.

A simple example here: According to my handy converter-calculator, the power equivalent of my 40 horsepower Perkins diesel is nearly 30,000 watts. I currently run a solar array of 400 watts, and am pretty maxed out in array size. So if I want to replace my diesel with electricity, and not be tied to a dock, my solar collection must improve by nearly two magnitudes: 100x what it is now. And my amp storage must also increase at a similar rate.

I would love to replace my dino-powered engine with electric, but it will require an improvement in energy collection and storage that is far more than just incremental. I suspect it will require a fundamentally different physical/technological approach -- one we've likely not even thought of (yet?).

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I agree, we have seen steady and continual improvement in both solar panel efficiency and battery storage. But these are incremental changes. The challenge is that the improvement trajectory must jump magnitudes if we are to approach the energy density of diesel.

A simple example here: According to my handy converter-calculator, the power equivalent of my 40 horsepower Perkins diesel is nearly 30,000 watts. I currently run a solar array of 400 watts, and am pretty maxed out in array size. So if I want to replace my diesel with electricity, and not be tied to a dock, my solar collection must improve by nearly two magnitudes: 100x what it is now. And my amp storage must also increase at a similar rate.

I would love to replace my dino-powered engine with electric, but it will require an improvement in energy collection and storage that is far more than just incremental. I suspect it will require a fundamentally different physical/technological approach -- one we've likely not even thought of (yet?).

that or what the rigging doctor on YouTube runs .
They have a Honda 2000 that runs the motor and recharges the bank when depleted.
https://youtu.be/-_lCM9elcmA