Inboard engines and a changing world

[JBP]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I actually hope marine diesel gets restricted because it will reduce all of the monster power yachts which create all of those nasty wakes. My meager use is nothing compared to those.
But, since I don’t see how EV battery tech can power a 50-80gph thirst, and the powerboat industry is quite large compared to cruising sailboats - I figure I can sit back and watch.
Btw the answer won’t be regulation IMO but rising fuel prices in theory

They will find a way. While there are no monster yachts in this list of the top 35 electric power boats, there are a few pretty big fast ones. The Mayla FortyFour is 44 ft and will do 70 knots.

https://www.mby.com/features/best-electric-boats-116768

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Chotu

And that was exactly my theory when I first started the thread.

Even though demand will go down for fossil fuel, I think enough companies will get out of the game and enough refineries will shut down that the price will end up going up. And that will change how we view everything.

Then there is the whole sin tax aspect. Taxes on cigs are up to $5 a pack in some places. Why? Because most people don't smoke so most people don't care if it is $1 a pack or $5 a pack or someday $15 a pack.

Once half of land vehicles are electrified expect politicians looking to balance budgets to say hey most people don't use diesel anymore lets throw $3 a gallon in taxes on them. Once they do that a couple years later short on funds $3 worked why not up it to $3.50, $5, $8, etc.

Now we are probably at least 10 if not 20 years away from that but it will happen. Most people won't care. They will go I don't use diesel why should I care the same reason they go I don't smoke why should I care.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Greatest Lakes

The planet doesn't contain enough raw material to make enough batteries to power the number of vehicles we currently have.

...well, you've shone the light on another aspect of the problem: too many personal vehicles, period. So the goal is not to just replace every ICE vehicle with an EV. Expect more public transit and alternatives, especially in urban areas.

The current battery technology is still scaling up, but already the main manufacturers provide 8 yr warranties on them, and a decade of life is not an unreasonable expectation. They will in some cases outlast the vehicle.

And since the EV battery packs are made up of many smaller cells, it's relatively simple to disassemble them, pick out the cells that still have life for use in other battery products, and send the dead ones out for full recycling.

The 'evils' of battery production will take centuries to approach the enormous and ongoing harms caused by the fossil fuel industries.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

...well, you've shone the light on another aspect of the problem: too many personal vehicles, period. So the goal is not to just replace every ICE vehicle with an EV. Expect more public transit and alternatives, especially in urban areas.

The current battery technology is still scaling up, but already the main manufacturers provide 8 yr warranties on them, and a decade of life is not an unreasonable expectation. They will in some cases outlast the vehicle.

And since the EV battery packs are made up of many smaller cells, it's relatively simple to disassemble them, pick out the cells that still have life for use in other battery products, and send the dead ones out for full recycling.

The 'evils' of battery production will take centuries to approach the enormous and ongoing harms caused by the fossil fuel industries.

You really should visit a lithium mine and see the ecological damage it is doing to the environment. Not to mention the near slave child labor used .

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

No politics. Tesla started slow, the initial volume of vehicles available was modest, so setting up big dealerships right off made no sense. Whereas - put one or two shiny Teslas in a nice setting in a high-traffic upscale mall. Make appointments for a test drive. Take the orders, and deliver the car to the customer's doorstep. Ditto for service. It was a brilliant strategy for a car startup.
They now produce in volume, and there's now a used Tesla market as well.

More on topic - I would consider that small diesels on long-distance cruising sailboats is a GOOD use of internal combustion engines, because that's where the energy density of diesel fuel is not yet matched by batteries or other alternatives.

For the personal vehicle, 95% of which are home at night, and mainly do short trips, the ICE engine is wasteful compared to current EVs. So that's becoming a bad use.

Actually there were laws in many places that restricted how cars and light trucks could be sold

Oh and as far as range you can buy range but for now it’s only high end re: lucid 530 miles per charge

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by newhaul

You really should visit a lithium mine and see the ecological damage it is doing to the environment. Not to mention the near slave child labor used .

Lithium is mined as ore in Australia and pumped out of the ground as a saltwater solution into drying ponds in Chile & Argentina. Also significant amounts mined in China but they are not real keen on using kids for dangerous industrial work there, the defunct 1-child policy has made them value there kids highly.

Generally the only place that child labor is used significantly is Africa which produces about 1.5-2.0% of global lithium.
https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news...raw%20material.

Cobalt on the other hand primarily comes from the Congo and child labor is rampant. Of course that is in part because they would prefer to have their children work in dangerous situations rather than die of hunger.
https://www.opb.org/article/2022/10/...ing%20globally.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/re...-ion-batteries

What does the cobalt go into? Batteries is the biggest user currently, but that's fading, LiFePo is taking over the EV market. It will remain a component of lithium batteries in handheld devices where specific energy is key to a successful product. Where else?

Catalysts for refining gas/petrol & diesel. Tires. Steel and high grade alloys such as would be found in various parts of an ICE.
https://www.chargesmart.co.nz/post/cobalt-mining


As far as environmental damage goes, yeah, lithium mining causes damage. But not as much as drilling for oil or fracking.
https://www.greenmatters.com/p/frack...lithium-mining

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Lithium is mined as ore in Australia and pumped out of the ground as a saltwater solution into drying ponds in Chile & Argentina. Also significant amounts mined in China but they are not real keen on using kids for dangerous industrial work there, the defunct 1-child policy has made them value there kids highly.

Generally the only place that child labor is used significantly is Africa which produces about 1.5-2.0% of global lithium.
https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news...raw%20material.

Cobalt on the other hand primarily comes from the Congo and child labor is rampant. Of course that is in part because they would prefer to have their children work in dangerous situations rather than die of hunger.
https://www.opb.org/article/2022/10/...ing%20globally.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/re...-ion-batteries

What does the cobalt go into? Batteries is the biggest user currently, but that's fading, LiFePo is taking over the EV market. It will remain a component of lithium batteries in handheld devices where specific energy is key to a successful product. Where else?

Catalysts for refining gas/petrol & diesel. Tires. Steel and high grade alloys such as would be found in various parts of an ICE.
https://www.chargesmart.co.nz/post/cobalt-mining


As far as environmental damage goes, yeah, lithium mining causes damage. But not as much as drilling for oil or fracking.
https://www.greenmatters.com/p/frack...lithium-mining

Not really fracking is done the same way that Australia does its lithium .
Now in co2 the ev is actually worse than an ice vehicle . Cradle to grave .

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Now in co2 the ev is actually worse than an ice vehicle . Cradle to grave .

It is not. It hasn't been true for decades.

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...ull-report.pdf

BEV also keep getting cleaner because the carbon intensity of the grid keeps going down. For most of the country it isn't even close anymore. I mean in places like CA or NY BEVs are so low carbon intensity a theoretical perfectly efficient internal combustion engines (impossible) would still be higher emissions.

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmu...o-get-cleaner/

and keep getting cleaner
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...n-gasoline.pdf

And keep getting cleaner



Next year the grid and thus BEVs will be cleaner, and the year after that and the year after that. This means not only will new BEVs be cleaner but existing ones will get cleaner over time something that never happens with ICEVs.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Not really fracking is done the same way that Australia does its lithium .
Now in co2 the ev is actually worse than an ice vehicle . Cradle to grave .

Cradle to grave EV emits more CO2 than ICEV as long as you don't count the fuel.

Even if all of the electricity for an EV were generated using Coal, it would still emit less CO2 than an ICEV over the life of the vehicle.
https://www.cotes.com/blog/greenhous...20six%20months.
https://www.iea.org/data-and-statist...nd-ice-vehicle
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Cradle to grave EV emits more CO2 than ICEV as long as you don't count the fuel.

Even if all of the electricity for an EV were generated using Coal, it would still emit less CO2 than an ICEV over the life of the vehicle.
https://www.cotes.com/blog/greenhous...20six%20months.
https://www.iea.org/data-and-statist...nd-ice-vehicle
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

Wrong don't forget the production phases for all components . A high end ev with an estimated 400 mile range will require approx 350k miles to break even with an ice powered vehicle of similar range. Average life of most cars is just below 200k miles.

https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Wrong don't forget the production phases for all components . A high end ev with an estimated 400 mile range will require approx 350k miles to break even with an ice powered vehicle of similar range. Average life of most cars is just below 200k miles.

Nope. Not even close his and every reputable source are lifecycle numbers.



BEV cradle to grave have lower emissions than ICEVs. Period. Not only is the gap large it is getting larger every year as the grid gets cleaner and fossil fuels remain fossil fuels.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Wrong don't forget the production phases for all components . A high end ev with an estimated 400 mile range will require approx 350k miles to break even with an ice powered vehicle of similar range. Average life of most cars is just below 200k miles.

What's your source for that?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Wrong don't forget the production phases for all components . A high end ev with an estimated 400 mile range will require approx 350k miles to break even with an ice powered vehicle of similar range. Average life of most cars is just below 200k miles.

https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk

Added the link to the associated Ted talk I forgot initially to include

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Nope. Not even close his and every reputable source are lifecycle numbers.



BEV cradle to grave have lower emissions than ICEVs. Period. Not only is the gap large it is getting larger every year as the grid gets cleaner and fossil fuels remain fossil fuels.

Sorry but the numbers in your graph are wrong by intent of the people pushing the narrative of ev good ice bad

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Added the link to the associated Ted talk I forgot initially to include

"NOTE FROM TED: This talk only reflects the speaker's personal views and interpretation. Several claims in this talk lack scientific support. We've flagged this talk because it falls outside the content guidelines TED gives TEDx organizers. "

In other words rando makes up bogus crap so people freaking out about BEVs can point to it.

I and others referenced multiple scientific and academic studies but in the span of 8 minutes you read all of them and determined based on your extensive scientific background in emissions anlysis that they are false and pushing a narrative. However we should blindly trust some rando just spouting nonsense on youtube.

Did I get that correct?