Inboard engines and a changing world

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by Chotu

As the march to switch to all electric motors for automobiles and trucks continues to accelerate, what will become of our boats?

Will diesel get cheap because the demand drops or will it become a high priced specialty fuel because no one makes it anymore?

What about propane cooktops? Gasoline for outboards? Heaters (diesel, propane, etc)?

People are moving away from these things and it's not slowing down. A lot of people are selling gas stations because they see the writing on the wall.

What do you think will happen to our boats, which mostly run on fossil fuels when not sailing?

All good questions.
I suspect that fossil fuels will become so expensive for our boats that we’ll all get much better at actually sailing, in fact Jeff Bezos seems to be tackling the energy problem head on by building a 127 metre 3,300 ton sailboat for 500 million dollars. He’s hit a couple of speed bumps though with the energy saving effort, the masts stopped him from landing his helicopter on the mothership so he was motivated to build a 250’ support vessel (Abeona) with 45 crew so the helicopter could be carried and kept nearby, allowing Koru to continue to be energy efficient under sail. No details are currently available regarding machinery on these 2 Superyachts so it’s still possible they might be using electric motors as well as wind power.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

All good questions.
I suspect that fossil fuels will become so expensive for our boats that we’ll all get much better at actually sailing, in fact Jeff Bezos seems to be tackling the energy problem head on by building a 127 metre 3,300 ton sailboat for 500 million dollars. He’s hit a couple of speed bumps though with the energy saving effort, the masts stopped him from landing his helicopter on the mothership so he was motivated to build a 250’ support vessel (Abeona) with 45 crew so the helicopter could be carried and kept nearby, allowing Koru to continue to be energy efficient under sail. No details are currently available regarding machinery on these 2 Superyachts so it’s still possible they might be using electric motors as well as wind power.

thank you for this post. I hope the discussion continues to stay away from politics and focuses on what might happen.

Here I was just thinking Jeff Bezos might be cool because he likes sailing. but maybe he did that out of practicality for the future

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Chotu

As the march to switch to all electric motors for automobiles and trucks continues to accelerate, what will become of our boats?

Will diesel get cheap because the demand drops or will it become a high priced specialty fuel because no one makes it anymore?

What about propane cooktops? Gasoline for outboards? Heaters (diesel, propane, etc)?

People are moving away from these things and it's not slowing down. A lot of people are selling gas stations because they see the writing on the wall.

What do you think will happen to our boats, which mostly run on fossil fuels when not sailing?

Fossil fuels will become cheaper as demand drops then more expensive as producers and refiners leave the market due to lack of profit. The rate at which the above happens depends on trends all around the world so I have no idea what the timeline will be like.

As long as fossil fuels are drilled for propane and butane will be by products that can be sold. Most cruisers can cook electrically provided they are willing to install enough solar and aren’t off season.

People using small outboards to go short distances or to go whatever distance at slow speed will convert to electric. People that need to go long distances at speed will get lighter dinghies and smaller engine that will just barely get them on a plane when loaded. This will save them what will eventually be expensive fuel.

Heaters is the hardest nut to crack. First they’ll insulate the boat to decrease the fuel demand, helps keep the boat cooler in the summer. Then pay the price for fossil fuels or maybe use a wood stove. Wood stove would be fine is you had periodic access to wood, but the wood to heat the boat for a given length of time (days, weeks, months) occupy several times the volume of kerosene or diesel and it becomes a storage volume issue.

Regarding cruisers under power.

Sailboats will tend to have taller masts and carry more sail and will carry better light air sails. This will delay motoring somewhat.

Motor vessels will optimize for lower drag at the cost of some interior volume. Probably they will get lighter too

The drive train for both will be a smaller prime mover sized to propel the vessel at SL 1.0-1.3 in flat water. It will be a hybrid so that it can push to boat to hullspeed (SL-1.3) against at least some wind and seas. And so that anchor work and repositioning can be done electric only.

The motor will drive a controllable pitch prop (CPP) so that the ICE is operating at its most efficient point for whatever speed is desired.

Sailboats that are cruising with no schedule may forego an inboard altogether and just have EP with the dinghy outboard as a backup. Depends on the owners preferences and pocketbook.

[Chotu]

I sure hope we don’t end up back at woodstoves. Speaking of pollution.

True, they might not emit more carbon if you use the fallen deadwood that was already going to be carbon anyway.

however, the localized particulate air pollution is off the charts with wood fires.

we are better off breathing with diesel

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Fossil fuels will become cheaper as demand drops then more expensive as producers and refiners leave the market due to lack of profit. The rate at which the above happens depends on trends all around the world so I have no idea what the timeline will be like.

As long as fossil fuels are drilled for propane and butane will be by products that can be sold. Most cruisers can cook electrically provided they are willing to install enough solar and aren’t off season.

People using small outboards to go short distances or to go whatever distance at slow speed will convert to electric. People that need to go long distances at speed will get lighter dinghies and smaller engine that will just barely get them on a plane when loaded. This will save them what will eventually be expensive fuel.

Heaters is the hardest nut to crack. First they’ll insulate the boat to decrease the fuel demand, helps keep the boat cooler in the summer. Then pay the price for fossil fuels or maybe use a wood stove. Wood stove would be fine is you had periodic access to wood, but the wood to heat the boat for a given length of time (days, weeks, months) occupy several times the volume of kerosene or diesel and it becomes a storage volume issue.

Regarding cruisers under power.

Sailboats will tend to have taller masts and carry more sail and will carry better light air sails. This will delay motoring somewhat.

Motor vessels will optimize for lower drag at the cost of some interior volume. Probably they will get lighter too

The drive train for both will be a smaller prime mover sized to propel the vessel at SL 1.0-1.3 in flat water. It will be a hybrid so that it can push to boat to hullspeed (SL-1.3) against at least some wind and seas. And so that anchor work and repositioning can be done electric only.

The motor will drive a controllable pitch prop (CPP) so that the ICE is operating at its most efficient point for whatever speed is desired.

Sailboats that are cruising with no schedule may forego an inboard altogether and just have EP with the dinghy outboard as a backup. Depends on the owners preferences and pocketbook.

I have both electric and gas motors for my dingy depends on conditions and distance
Masts and sail area are not a metric that is easily nor responsibly changed that is a balance between design and function ballast and sail area must be balanced or you are constantly over powered or the inverse underpowered.

I heat boat with diesel forced air furnace . Most economical uses about a quart of fuel per day average . Not running when I'm not on boat or asleep. That's what down comforters are for. Don't know for sure yet but I am figuring 12 gallons last winter. And use about 2 gallons propane a year.
Can't cook on electric off the dock my inverter won't run my induction cook top.

[JBP]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Heaters is the hardest nut to crack.

Alcohol is a viable fuel for heating.
You can get high efficiency wood stoves for your home, I suppose it could be adapted to boats.

Also, if you have enough batteries for propulsion, you could probably run heat pumps too. Heat pumps are becoming more popular, you can now get a home water heater that uses a heat pump instead of gas or electricity.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I have both electric and gas motors for my dingy depends on conditions and distance

Masts and sail area are not a metric that is easily nor responsibly changed that is a balance between design and function ballast and sail area must be balanced or you are constantly over powered or the inverse underpowered.



I heat boat with diesel forced air furnace . Most economical uses about a quart of fuel per day average . Not running when I'm not on boat or asleep. That's what down comforters are for. Don't know for sure yet but I am figuring 12 gallons last winter. And use about 2 gallons propane a year.

Can't cook on electric off the dock my inverter won't run my induction cook top.

Yeah, that’s one of the things I really liked about living in the PNW, very moderate heating requirements and year round sailing.

Adding 7-15% to a mast’s height is something that is done occasionally. It does not lead to boats being over or under powered anymore than normal. Boat starts to heel too much or act squirrelly crew reduces sail. It does lead to more reefing and more headsail changes.

As fuel costs increase designers will install more mast as a matter of course in new designs. Some existing boats will have taller masts installed. Yep, it’s going to cost, but cheaper than a new boat.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by JBP

Alcohol is a viable fuel for heating.
You can get high efficiency wood stoves for your home, I suppose it could be adapted to boats.

Also, if you have enough batteries for propulsion, you could probably run heat pumps too. Heat pumps are becoming more popular, you can now get a home water heater that uses a heat pump instead of gas or electricity.

Alcohol is a possibility but it still depends on cost. As portable fuels increase in price, so too does the cost of growing the feedstock, fermenting and distilling the alcohol.

Running a heat pump is the same as running AC. You need 2 things to do that, batteries to store enough energy for a day or two’s use, and enough solar, wind & hydro to keep up with the HP demands, EP, and all other house loads.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Alcohol is a possibility but it still depends on cost. As portable fuels increase in price, so too does the cost of growing the feedstock, fermenting and distilling the alcohol.

Running a heat pump is the same as running AC. You need 2 things to do that, batteries to store enough energy for a day or two’s use, and enough solar, wind & hydro to keep up with the HP demands, EP, and all other house loads.

High efficiency heatpump powered by diesel powerplant (alternator/generator) is likely close or maybe even beating the fuel consumption of burning diesel for heat. Also ideally it isn't 100% electricity from diesel (partially by solar/etc) which improves things further. So even if heat pump can't be powered completely by renewables and/or shorepower there is a net benefit.

However yes boats with more battery capacity and renewable energy will be a thing in fact they are already becoming a thing.

Another half step would be electric propulsion but with a diesel generator. Obviously if you ran it all the time that would be pointless might as well just have the diesel turn the shaft. However if you only had to run it half the time because the other half came from battery stored energy from shorepower, solar, etc then you are reducing fuel consumption.

Green aspects aside there is a nice convience factor of getting down to just diesel. Having gasoline for dingy outboard, diesel for inboard, and propane for galley is a bit of a pain especially if traveling internationally. Getting to a point where all you need is diesel and maybe half as much would have quality of life benefits.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Statistical

High efficiency heatpump powered by diesel powerplant (alternator/generator) is likely close or maybe even beating the fuel consumption of burning diesel for heat. Also ideally it isn't 100% electricity from diesel (partially by solar/etc) which improves things further. So even if heat pump can't be powered completely by renewables and/or shorepower there is a net benefit.

However yes boats with more battery capacity and renewable energy will be a thing in fact they are already becoming a thing.

Another half step would be electric propulsion but with a diesel generator. Obviously if you ran it all the time that would be pointless might as well just have the diesel turn the shaft. However if you only had to run it half the time because the other half came from battery stored energy from shorepower, solar, etc then you are reducing fuel consumption.

Green aspects aside there is a nice convience factor of getting down to just diesel. Having gasoline for dingy outboard, diesel for inboard, and propane for galley is a bit of a pain especially if traveling internationally. Getting to a point where all you need is diesel and maybe half as much would have quality of life benefits.

Eliminate the gasoline
https://www.klaxondieseloutboards.co...nKLX469hp.html
Just can't seem to get them in the usa
Here we are stuck with yanmar
https://yanmardieseloutboardmotors.com/mako-10-60/

[skipperpete]

There are a few options other than fossil fuels that don’t seem to get a mention on the forum but have been part of my experience over many years. The first one is using water to produce hydrogen, this is a very real thing, I made some parts for a system that ran a car for 40 years around Lismore in NSW. The guy had an old Toyota sedan that allegedly ran on just water and he was very secretive about it but needed, on about a yearly basis some items made from 316 stainless steel. After knowing him for a few years I absolutely believe that his car ran only on water.
Another rarely discussed alternative power producing unit is the Stirling engine, I have a whispergen that uses one of these engines to produce 24v DC, almost silent in operation with a clean exhaust. Apparently any heat source can be used to run the little multi piston engine, mine runs on diesel but perhaps it could be adapted to use waste heat from some other machine?
Will there ever be a revival of the small steam engine? I know they caused the early industrial era smog pollution but aside from using wood or coal as fuel perhaps a solar beam could be focused on the boiler tubes /coils to produce steam. No use to a cruising yacht but could be a source of power on land.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

There are a few options other than fossil fuels that don’t seem to get a mention on the forum but have been part of my experience over many years. The first one is using water to produce hydrogen, this is a very real thing, I made some parts for a system that ran a car for 40 years around Lismore in NSW. The guy had an old Toyota sedan that allegedly ran on just water and he was very secretive about it but needed, on about a yearly basis some items made from 316 stainless steel. After knowing him for a few years I absolutely believe that his car ran only on water.
Another rarely discussed alternative power producing unit is the Sterling engine, I have a whispergen that uses one of these engines to produce 24v DC, almost silent in operation with a clean exhaust. Apparently any heat source can be used to run the little multi piston engine, mine runs on diesel but perhaps it could be adapted to use waste heat from some other machine?
Will there ever be a revival of the small steam engine? I know they caused the early industrial era smog pollution but aside from using wood or coal as fuel perhaps a solar beam could be focused on the boiler tubes /coils to produce steam. No use to a cruising yacht but could be a source of power on land.

Steam, Sterling, Otto (Gas/petrol) and Diesel are just engines that convert heat energy into mechanical motion that can be turned into electricity or a spinning prop shaft. Currently, at the sizes needed for cruising boats, diesel is the most efficient.
Sterling uses external combustion so any heat source works, but at a significant efficiency disadvantage.

Solar could be used to produce steam for a steam engine, but at a significant weight disadvantage compared to solar panels, probably a big efficiency disadvantage too.

Something that has become common in the US car market that I expect to make it's way into the outboard and marine diesel markets is variable valve timing which allows a gas engine to delay intake valve closure, compression is reduced so there is less power extracted, but the power is more efficiently extracted. Delaying the intake valve closure makes it a Miller cycle rather than Otto cycle. You lose power for the same weight engine, but gain in efficiency. Variable valve timing means you can tweek the engine of the fly for better peak power or better fuel economy. If the valves were not variable you would save on complexity of the variable valve system but it would cost you in increased engine weight. This could be applied to outboards.

Miller cycle as been applied to diesels to, but generally for the purpose of reducing NoX emissions. It could be applied to increase fuel economy but hasn't been pursued significantly to date.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by JBP

...
Also, if you have enough batteries for propulsion, you could probably run heat pumps too. Heat pumps are becoming more popular, you can now get a home water heater that uses a heat pump instead of gas or electricity.

Indeed.

Even before Inflation Reduction Act incentives kicked in, Americans bought more heat pumps, than gas furnaces, last year (2022).

[newhaul]

Ok guys I know this seems really weird from me but is a 6hp 48 volt motor enough for my 9k columbia 29 defender long keel ? May be able to get motor and speed controls for real cheap

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Ok guys I know this seems really weird from me but is a 6hp 48 volt motor enough for my 9k columbia 29 defender long keel ? May be able to get motor and speed controls for real cheap

It will definitely move you in and out of the slip and around the harbor. But punching into waves in a seaway? 6HP is still 6HP, assuming things are properly and consistently rated. Even in something like a river, I wouldn’t expect you to move at hull speed.
Depending on mounts, coupling and controls, if your old engine is coming out anyway I’d be tempted to try it regardless. If you still have the old Atomic 4, remember that’s prox. 25 HP. I can’t imagine a 6HP electric would come close to that, though I’d be surprised if any Atomic 4 would put out its advertised horsepower.