Inboard engines and a changing world

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by rhubstuff

To those worried about scarcity of diesel fuel: As I type this, there are about 2 million semi trucks driving on US roads (and several times that number worldwide). Each one has two one-hundred gallon saddle tanks. That's 400 million gallons of diesel fuel in use in the US today. And another 400 million tomorrow. On the marine side, hundreds of millions of gallons of diesel fuel are used daily by commercial boats such as fishing boats, ferries, tankers, bulkers, heavy lifts, car carriers, cruise ships, etc, etc. There is no viable alternative to diesel fuel. We will be using diesel fuel for the next 2-3 generations at least. There is no shortage, demand is high and rising, and we have at least 100 years of reserves in the ground in the US. Why worry about it?

one thing I have to correct in your statement . Most semi trucks are at least 150 gallon per tank. Mine had twin 250 gallon saddles and that was average with a 60" sleeper.
So your fuel estimate is at least 200 million shy.
And you forgot the 5k tanks on diesel electric train locomotives. ( usually 2 or 3 engines minimum per hookup.

Diesel will never go away. At the worst it will be mostly bio diesel.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

My only thought is you’re adding required complexity and electronics where you didn’t have any, adding sensors for more info it cool, but having the engine able to run with a compete electric failure. This has had me debating how just rebuilding my 15hp Yanmar and adding a better prop and some sensors, vs “upgrading”.

Well no, the Beta’s are pure mechanical diesels that meet current tier 3 emissions requirements. In my mind best of both worlds for marine environment where you can be away from a mechanic, laptop, and replacement ECU. I don’t think it has any electronics unless you count gauges?
Betas (and maybe Nanni?) may be the last generation of mechanical diesels that can be clean and mechanical. Once emissions standards are raised further I think electronic CR diesels, possibly even with urea based emissions systems, may become the new standard.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Well no, the Beta’s are pure mechanical diesels that meet current tier 3 emissions requirements. In my mind best of both worlds for marine environment where you can be away from a mechanic, laptop, and replacement ECU. I don’t think it has any electronics unless you count gauges?
Betas (and maybe Nanni?) may be the last generation of mechanical diesels that can be clean and mechanical. Once emissions standards are raised further I think electronic CR diesels, possibly even with urea based emissions systems, may become the new standard.

I’ll have to look into the betas

At this pace we’re going to regulate ourselves back into the Stone Age

[transmitterdan]

This is why people need to tune their “hype filter” once in a while.

Car companies are not announcing electric cars right and left because they believe the technology is ready to replace liquid fuels. They do it because to not do it will crush their stock prices. And there is a significant group of young people who will pay 2-3 times the typical price of an auto to get “Green EV” logos on the rear of their autos.

Everyone reading this thread will be long dead as well as all their offspring before cruising boats are even 50% electric propulsion.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

I’ll have to look into the betas

At this pace we’re going to regulate ourselves back into the Stone Age

My boat is getting a volvo md2 all mechanical can even hand start.
Have enough spare parts to rebuild the engine 3 times so it will be going strong long after my grand kids are gone

[waterman46]

This subject seems to come up on CF with astounding regularity. Did the OP read any of the previous comments on the subject? It has been hashed and rehashed, diced and ground, and always the same logical conclusion: at present state of the art, and for the foreseeable future if there is such, electric propulsion for auxiliary means is fine if you only sail, or if you only need to get out of the marina (and hope you saved enough juice to get back in).

The previous threads have some good information on the actual numbers from sound engineering principles, and some who have done the conversion to electric have contributed also.

[captmikem]

I saw a photo in the news the other day that pretty much sums it up. It was a gas powered service car towing a diesel generator to rescue charge electric vehicles on the highway.

M

[transmitterdan]

The California grid blackouts are creating some really odd photos.

Here is an article on charging EVs using the little inverter/generators like EU2000 and such.

https://www.diy-experts.net/charge-ev/

It is telling that a 2000W generator charging an electric car is estimated to get about 12-18 miles per gallon of gasoline.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

The California grid blackouts are creating some really odd photos.

Here is an article on charging EVs using the little inverter/generators like EU2000 and such.

https://www.diy-experts.net/charge-ev/

It is telling that a 2000W generator charging an electric car is estimated to get about 12-18 miles per gallon of gasoline.

here is an article about Honda developing a towed generator that extends the range of the vehicle. Designed to be used while in motion .
There is even a version for the tesla.
Rav Long Ranger

[DeepFrz]

Honda has just given up on fuel cells and is going EV instead. Fuel cells are a foolish endeavor IMHO and are being pushed by big oil/gas.

Nikola have expanded their line to EV trucks.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by newhaul

here is an article about Honda Toyota developing a towed generator that extends the range of the vehicle. Designed to be used while in motion .
There is even a version for the tesla.
Rav Long Ranger

Interesting.
The Toyota RAV4 EV was discontinued in 2014, but Toyota remains committed to the electrification of vehicles.
From the article:
“... Amazingly, even with all the conversion losses added up, the gas mileage of this (Long Ranger) combo is comparable or BETTER than the pure gasoline version of the same vehicle.”

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Interesting.
The Toyota RAV4 EV was discontinued in 2014, but Toyota remains committed to the electrification of vehicles.
From the article:
“... Amazingly, even with all the conversion losses added up, the gas mileage of this (Long Ranger) combo is comparable or BETTER than the pure gasoline version of the same vehicle.”

thank you for the correction on manufacturer .
Its hard to keep them separated these days

[DeepFrz]

It is interesting to note that during the blackouts in California Tesla diverted all solar cell and Tesla Wall production to charging stations most likely to be affected by the blackouts. What didn't get much, or any, attention was the fact that very few gas/diesel stations had back up generators installed so people couldn't get gas for their cars or generators. At least one airfield in CA supplied a limited amount to people on an emergency basis until they hit their reserve.

The few fuel stations that did have backup generators had "lineups for blocks" according to one observer. Not much in the mainstream press about this.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

It is interesting to note that during the blackouts in California Tesla diverted all solar cell and Tesla Wall production to charging stations most likely to be affected by the blackouts. What didn't get much, or any, attention was the fact that very few gas/diesel stations had back up generators installed so people couldn't get gas for their cars or generators. At least one airfield in CA supplied a limited amount to people on an emergency basis until they hit their reserve.

The few fuel stations that did have backup generators had "lineups for blocks" according to one observer. Not much in the mainstream press about this.

bet they are installing gensets now :-):-):-):-)

[OneHullPaul]

Pure supply and demand market: Lower demand = lower price??? Confused.

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Diesel will become even more expensive - pure supply and demand markets: there will be fewer people wanting it so those remaining pay more for the higher per-user cost of production. In the short or medium term, the market gets manipulated by the producers for there own ends so impossible to tell about price.

Most sailing vessels will become electric over time as the new boats come with it automatically and age, but that's going to take quite some time to change given the number of older boats and retro-fitting is always more expensive.

Motor vessels are much harder to work with until the storage tech is orders better, which isn't too soon. I'd even estimate that motor vessels may mostly skip the electric-battery generation and only properly move when hydrogen fuel cells predominate.

The real change will occur when non-fossil fuel is de rigueur in most major ports - think Amsterdam coming very soon, and others on the way. That will pave the path to change that the current early adopters are already running on.

It's already at least double or more the cost of fuel in Oz compared to 16 years ago - some history here. So fuel has doubled, or about 4.5% per annum CAGR, yet Australian wages have grown about 2.8% CAGR over that same time. So fuel costs a lot more now than then in real terms. How many boats out there are more than 16 years old, built for a time when fuel efficiency wasn't nearly as important if at all?