insane marina charge

[justinfinity]

In my view there are two things going on in this thread:

1. How to handle boatyard fees
2. Atlantic Towers installation

Regarding #1, it seems to have been discussed at length and I'm not sure I can add much except to say that the "open ended" opaque nature of boatyard billing is a function of simply (a) not knowing what they don't know when they get into a project; (b) unskilled/inexperienced labor force; and (c) a captive customer who has almost no alternative, except maybe another boatyard with the same characteristic problems.

Regarding #2, not sure if the OP meant "bimini" literally or if they were referring to the Atlantic Towers arch products that are placed on the transom and used to mount solar panels, tender lift etc.

I did this project on my boat last Fall. You would think that placing four feet on your deck and fitting together the arch would be pretty straightforward but that is not necessarily so. For one thing, while Atlantic Towers has reference installations for a long list of boats, in the end, obviously they don't know your specific boat, so you have to figure out your exact placement.

However, the really infuriating aspect of Atlantic Towers is that the installation instructions are almost non-existent, or terrible. And there is no complete parts schematic or sensible reference. The individual parts bags are poorly labeled and it is not unambiguously obvious where the parts go. The few "schematic" drawings provided are awful. Finally, all of the above leads to support calls with Atlantic Towers, who are short staffed, and rely essentially on one engineer, Steve Tull, for that support.

I had a very good "team" (capable, thoughtful boating friends and paid experienced people) helping me do my installation and we wasted way too much time on support problems that could have been completely eliminated if (a) the instructions and parts reference were clear; and (b) if support was more readily available.

I have given very clear similar feedback as above to Shelley Golden and Steve Tull at Atlantic Towers. They have a good business that could be actually great.

[Shanachie]

The idea that a professional can not give you a solid quote after inspecting your boat and the bimini/tower being installed is ridiculous.


If they truly do not know what work is involved, they are inexperienced and not someone you want to work on your boat.

[justinfinity]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

The idea that a professional can not give you a solid quote after inspecting your boat and the bimini/tower being installed is ridiculous.


If they truly do not know what work is involved, they are inexperienced and not someone you want to work on your boat.

For repeatable jobs (say, an oil change), I agree.

For a custom job where they are experienced (say, installing a rig or painting a bottom), an estimate with some +/- leeway might be expected.

For custom work, including a job they have never done, I don't agree.

[seandepagnier]

People want to get paid more than they are worth.

It probably took 3 times longer than it should and $150 an hour is not a reasonable rate, I would say $15 an hour for that type of work for 17 hours = $255 roughly. At most $600 because I have no idea how many holes were drilled and sealant used and how difficult it was to access under the deck.

[REDACTED]

Don't feel bad: it is probably justified. Next time do it yourself.

[justinfinity]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

People want to get paid more than they are worth.

It probably took 3 times longer than it should and $150 an hour is not a reasonable rate, I would say $15 an hour for that type of work for 17 hours = $255 roughly. At most $600 because I have no idea how many holes were drilled and sealant used and how difficult it was to access under the deck.

[REDACTED]

Don't feel bad: it is probably justified. Next time do it yourself.

A buyer and a seller make a market, whether everyone is happy or not.

Personally, I would never pay someone less for a predictable bad outcome, which is likely if you hire unskilled labor at minimum wage to do structural work with some level of geometry on your boat. I would rather pay more for skill, experience, the proper tools, and a job done right. That's why I hired an experienced "foreman" (with an impressive set of tools) to supervise, oversee, and lead us through the project, to prevent us from making stupid mistakes. That was worth it.

There is ZERO chance you will get this type of job done properly or in a timely manner from anyone who is making $15/hr. ZERO.

Reduce the scope of the work to a "few holes and some sealant" is fantasy, not reality. At least this is the case for something like the arch kits from Atlantic Towers: they are semi-custom, there is a lot of dry-fitting that has to be done, and you don't want to screw it up.

Yes, it sounds like the OP got bent over by the boatyard, but it's a fantasy to think this is an easy installation.

[Fore and Aft]

Seaandepagnier my 17 year old boy makes $17 an hour as a waiter/barman. There's zero chance anyone here in Australia would fit that for $15 US an hour ($22Aud).
I don't know what rock you have been living under but every marina I know expects there contractors to be insured. So who do you know thats fully insured and does skilled marine work for $15 an hour?
Cheers

[boatpoker]

I don't understand...
My wife and I built this foam cored fiberglass hard top and the aluminum frame that supports it from scratch and installed it in 3 days for $1000Cdn in materials. The ss uprights were existing from the old canvas enclosure. The interior liner we did the following weekend. The canvas enclosure we purchased separately as we do not have sewing skills.

[Shanachie]

Originally Posted by justinfinity

For a custom job where they are experienced (say, installing a rig or painting a bottom), an estimate with some +/- leeway might be expected.

For custom work, including a job they have never done, I don't agree.

$125 to $150 an hour translates to 250-300K a year. For that, competence and efficiency should be a given. Artistry should be expected.


If the contractor has never done a job, I would ask for a discount. Why should I pay for him to learn his profession? More likely, I would hire someone else who had done the job before.


In my experience, boatyards are the absolute worst place to get any work done, unless the boat has to be out of the water. You get charged $100 to $150 an hour for someone making $15 or $20.


I once had an extremely expensive cutless bearing change because I was paying $125 an hour for a toothless alcoholic to do the job at a boatyard.


He couldn't figure out how to free some rusted bolts, so he cut a perfectly good prop shaft and gummed up a number of other things. Thbe new parts and clocked time just kept adding up.


I've had new rigging and a bottom job done by competent workers during the last few years. Both estimates were spot on. It really isn't difficult if you know what you're doing.

[qwerme]

you got a 7800$ MBA in "Ask for a Quote before giving the OK for the job".

Congratulations!

At the very least, getting a ballpark figure would have helped you make the decision.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by justinfinity

In my view there are two things going on in this thread:

1. How to handle boatyard fees
2. Atlantic Towers installation

Regarding #1, it seems to have been discussed at length and I'm not sure I can add much except to say that the "open ended" opaque nature of boatyard billing is a function of simply (a) not knowing what they don't know when they get into a project; (b) unskilled/inexperienced labor force; and (c) a captive customer who has almost no alternative, except maybe another boatyard with the same characteristic problems.

Regarding #2, not sure if the OP meant "bimini" literally or if they were referring to the Atlantic Towers arch products that are placed on the transom and used to mount solar panels, tender lift etc.

I did this project on my boat last Fall. You would think that placing four feet on your deck and fitting together the arch would be pretty straightforward but that is not necessarily so. For one thing, while Atlantic Towers has reference installations for a long list of boats, in the end, obviously they don't know your specific boat, so you have to figure out your exact placement.

However, the really infuriating aspect of Atlantic Towers is that the installation instructions are almost non-existent, or terrible. And there is no complete parts schematic or sensible reference. The individual parts bags are poorly labeled and it is not unambiguously obvious where the parts go. The few "schematic" drawings provided are awful. Finally, all of the above leads to support calls with Atlantic Towers, who are short staffed, and rely essentially on one engineer, Steve Tull, for that support.

I had a very good "team" (capable, thoughtful boating friends and paid experienced people) helping me do my installation and we wasted way too much time on support problems that could have been completely eliminated if (a) the instructions and parts reference were clear; and (b) if support was more readily available.

I have given very clear similar feedback as above to Shelley Golden and Steve Tull at Atlantic Towers. They have a good business that could be actually great.

I hear you on the instructions not being perfect. We actually made a video in an attempt to help DIYer installers and what it ended up doing is causing a lot of people to hire us to install them because I guess the video truly shows just how much work and time it takes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxwDpfu5KnU&t=310s

I also wrote out step by step instructions on our website here: https://theyachtrigger.com/atlantic-...ilboat-arches/

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by nuru05

I'm not quite sure what to do here. I had my marina install a Bimini from atlantic towers over the winter and I just got the bill. I knew it was going to be kind of expensive but nothing like this. I spoke to the people at the factory and they said that "2 people should be able to DIY install it in about 1-2 days or 20-30 hours" what I got back from the marina was 51 hours for a total of about $7800. The engineer at the factory looked at a picture of my boat and said it looked like a very simple installation that would be on the easy side of what they see so they should have easily done it in 1-2 days

I don't want to be unreasonable but this seems insane to me. They have all the tools and equipment right at their fingertips and they are a literal boat builder so I would assume they should be able to at least outpace a husband wife combo doing it dockside.

So what do I do, are these things normally up for negotiation? or how do you normally handle these disputes? I don't want to be a dick but I feel like I should pay such a high price for them taking their sweet time to do a very simple job.

Tough situation, unfortunately the lack of quote or estimate beforehand means you're somewhat bound to the invoice.

As a point of reference, we usually allow two guys 9-12 hours to install one of these (including a dinghy lifting system), unless its a particularly complicated install that involves modifying the stern area/railings, seats, etc.
Having said that, we have installed over 350 of these over the past few years - so we have the process somewhat dialed in.
Our first ever Atlantic Towers arch install took two guys almost a full two days - so more like 30 man hours.

See video link above for a look into the reality of the process.

[Rockinar]

I see a bunch of aluminum tubing someone had to mock up, design, bend the tubing, TIG weld, fit, install. $8000 seems reasonable.

I just wanted some new canvas on my dodger and Bimini and they wanted $7K. I decided right then I dont need a dodger and bimini that bad and took it all off Christian Williams style.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Rockinar

I see a bunch of aluminum tubing someone had to mock up, design, bend the tubing, TIG weld, fit, install. $8000 seems reasonable.

I just wanted some new canvas on my dodger and Bimini and they wanted $7K. I decided right then I dont need a dodger and bimini that bad and took it all off Christian Williams style.

The OP is talking about a labor only charge. He purchased the arch and the yard just did the installation.

[thinwater]

It would help if the OP posted photos.


I would ask the yard what the complications were. If they had to cut the arch or if the boat needed reinforcement (not unlikely). Hanging a dinghy is pretty high load. Depending on the dinghy, the leverage and bouncing through waves, it could be well over a ton working load in a small spot.


But yeah .... Depending on the yard, the other issue is the seasonal nature of work. They don't keep a steady crew and all inefficiencies get billed. That's why there are so many DIYs on forums. Most of us would be glad to sub out more work, if it were predictable and economical like car repair. But it aint.