Insurance needed for transient (temporary) dockage?

[holtjp]

On an East Coast trip from Maine to Florida there were about a half-dozen occasions where proof of insurance was required. On a few other stopovers the slip rental forms specifically stated insurance was required and I had to sign the form acknowledging my acceptance of the requirement. The requirement makes total sense given the risk a badly maintained boat poses to the marina.

[Mike OReilly]

I was going to try and summarize the results of this thread once it had run its course, but I feel like I'm still uncertain. Many here report facing demands for proof of insurance to tie up to a temporary (transient) dock. But not everyone, and many reports are directly contradictory.

I guess my takeaway is that it is necessary in most places now, but whether one will have to actually show proof is still hit-and-miss.

[TrentePieds]

Isn't the problem really a non-problem? Anyone who carries insurance will have a certificate evidencing the coverage, and to keep that certificate in the Ship's Documents seems to me to be a natural, common-sensical thing to do.

If you are asked, show the certificate. If you are not - no skin off anybody's nose.

TrentePieds

[Mike OReilly]

I started this thread, not because I thought there is a problem, but because I wanted to assess this oft-repeated claim of needing insurance for a simple transient dock. It does not gybe with my personal experience, and it seems I'm not alone. But we may now be in the minority.

If there is an issue, it is the ever-expanding demand for mandatory insurance coverage. Some may see that as a good thing, but I think there are legitimate arguments against this trend.

[JPA Cate]

Mike, do your data by areas, and let us know, especially the ones that are "sometimes". Those "sometimes" might be able to answer questions that would generate an hypothesis why they were accepted or knocked back.

I'll add that I think eventually, all our insurances will have to include hull removal if beached and broken.

Ann

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Mike, do your data by areas, and let us know, especially the ones that are "sometimes". Those "sometimes" might be able to answer questions that would generate an hypothesis why they were accepted or knocked back.

I'll add that I think eventually, all our insurances will have to include hull removal if beached and broken.

Ann

Since it's you asking Ann, I'll see what I can do . My sense is, it will make no sense, but maybe there's something useful in all this.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I do wonder if there is a character difference at work as well. The further one is from dense urban areas, the more relaxed people tend to be about all this legal stuff. I'm not trying to paint some idyllic view of rural/remote folks, but I find that people in the hinterlands tend NOT to want to run to a higher authority to solve their problems, and are more likely to just work it out themselves.

I think the insurance requirement from marinas is, for the most part, a red herring. Actually having insurance provides little benefit to the marina, even if they're added to the policy. I believe the real reason marinas want to see it is that it provides a means for them to turn away poorly found boats owned by people of limited means, who marinas view as having low profit potential. In populated areas, there is a waiting list for slips, and insisting on insurance is one way to be sure that the slips go to customers more likely to spend money on other goods and services and less likely to pose a problem requiring management attention.

[Mike OReilly]

OK, here's my attempt to make some sense out of all this. I've gone through all the responses and tried to faithfully reflect what was reported. Often there are direct contradictory reports, which I've tried to show.

There are a number of more general responses, so I've lumped them into two categories: People who generally DO get asked for insurance, and people who generally DON'T.

From the results it seems there are some clear areas where insurance is needed, and proof is required. In other areas it is hit-and-miss. And a few report zero demand for insurance.

Remember, this is specifically about transient (temporary) dockage. This is not about long-term dockage or haul out. I think almost everywhere requires proof of insurance in these cases.

[sv_pelagia]

All Mexico marinas (west coast) we visited required proof of Mexican liability insurance.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Many people on CF report that liability insurance (at a minimum) is needed to enter a marina, or temporarily rent a dock; in other words, transient dockage.

I have never experienced this demand, so I'm curious who here has had to show proof of insurance when seeking a short-term (transient) dock. I don't want to hear about what you heard. I want to know if YOU have had to present proof of insurance just to tie up to a dock for a night or two.

Please tell us the location, and when this happened.

I think only once have I been required to show proof of liability insurance to rent a transient slip. I had to call my insurance company and have them fax the document. A few times I have had to show proof of auto insurance to use a marina's courtesy car.

I don't remember where these were, but I believe it was in Florida.

[Bobby Lex]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I think the insurance requirement from marinas is, for the most part, a red herring. Actually having insurance provides little benefit to the marina, even if they're added to the policy.

I'm betting that the actual reason marinas ask for insurance is because the marina's own insurance provider requires that they do so. They don't want to be on the hook financially for some catastrophic loss. They want to make sure that everyone at that marina has insurance. Marinas that ask for proof of insurance are just following orders from their own insurance companies.

I'm also betting that pretty much all marina insurance policies have this requirement. Just because a $10.00 an hour dock hand doesn't ask a transient for their insurance, doesn't mean the marina's insurer doesn't require it. (The same way that not all stores enforced mask requirements during Covid. They were supposed to, but they just didn't bother to).

Bob

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

I'm betting that the actual reason marinas ask for insurance is because the marina's own insurance provider requires that they do so. They don't want to be on the hook financially for some catastrophic loss. They want to make sure that everyone at that marina has insurance. Marinas that ask for proof of insurance are just following orders from their own insurance companies.

I experienced this first hand a few years ago while based in a small Lake Ontario marina. The first couple of years there was nothing mentioned about insurance, but then the marina was sold and the new owner came in with a new insurance policy.

It was quite egregious, shifting all responsibility onto the boat owners, even for things not under our control. I amended the agreement and signed it. The marina owner accepted my amendments, but admitted he had no idea what the contract actually meant. His insurance company demanded he use, and get all his patrons to sign.

[rxcsailnet]

Sailing along the East coast of the US, it seems to be hit or miss. Some ask about insurance, some ask to see the papers, for transient stays. In the NW EU (France, Spain, UK, Ireland, most asked for insurance papers. We were also asked for insurance papers for the Caledonian Canal and the Crinan Canal. We carry liability, but they wanted more coverage than we carry. They thought for a minute then let us go.

I have read recently about fires in boatyards and storage facilities, and it seems like these sorts of events end up with all the boat insurers getting together to settle how things will be paid. I have started to read long-term storage contracts, and they require everyone to have liability insurance, and absolve the facility owners of any liability for events like fires. Crazy, I know. I think the reason to require liability is for events like big fires, where everything gets burned to ashes and no one can figure out where the fire started. So the insurers declare some sort of "general liability" for everyone there, and they all pay the owner of the facility for his losses, and then they pay the boat owners whatever they are contracted for.

It is like the situation on cargo ships where they have to throw some cargo overboard to save the ship, even if it is the ship operator's fault that the ship ran aground or on the rocks, and the insurance companies of everyone who has cargo on board have to pay for the salvage and damages to the ship. If you don't have insurance, I don't know whether they can come after you for this situation. We need someone who knows maritime insurance to find out why this is the case.

[Rockinar]

My personal experience when cruising gulf coast of Florida I was never asked for insurance for "a couple days" which was less than a week. When I said I was going to stay "a month" I WAS asked for insurance.

[rabbi]

So far every Marina we visited in EU waters (+ gibraltar) has required copies of boat registration, liability insurance (including spillage & wreck disposal) and ID.

With the occasional exception where the office was already closed and the dockhand wasn't interested in paperwork. As far as I can remember that happened three or four times over the last seasons. Otherwise it's _always_ papers, insurance, ID.
Some like Menton require full paperwork just to prepare a quote.

Outside EU things changed dramatically. IIRC the only two marinas to explicitly require insurance where Rubicon in Lanzarote and Marina For Saint Louis in Saint Martin.

There is no way to cruise EU without liability insurance. Which IMO is a good thing. I pay 120 Euro a year so who cares.