Is it necessary to have an ally onboard during a sea trial as a first time buyer?

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I disagree with the opinion that a sea trial "is not for the purpose of determining whether you like the boat. You should have already past that point"

That totally disregards the idea that how the boat sails or performs underway is important to a prospective owner.

Of course how a boat sails or performs is important to the prospective buyer. Who suggested it wasn't? What you seem to be missing is that a survey and sea trial are both part of the formal purchase process after a potential buyer submits a purchase offer and it is accepted by the seller.

A formal and legal purchase agreement is not how you determine whether you might like a Tartan 40. It is how you determine whether you will go ahead with buying THIS Tartan 40. Many buyers have previous experience with the same or a very similar model. Those who don't typically seek one out and arrange a test sail, a crewing opportunity, or other experience such as a charter. If a buyer is considering a boat about which he has no experience, it may well be that the best approach is to arrange a test sail with the seller BEFORE initiating the purchase process. I know people who have done that.

[mvweebles]

Allison - I'm a bit confused. Initial question suggests purchase is pending. Later sounds like purchase happened quite some time in the past = and there have been considerable disappointments and surprises since. Without pointing specific fingers, would be helpful for others to understand your experience and lessons learned.

I used to deliver a lot of new yachts for new owners. As such, I was involved with many sea trials. First, no "tourists" in a sea trial. I personally advocate for a sea trial before a survey due to expense. But I advocate for an extensive sea trial in conditions that stress the systems of possible. I recommend against a sea trial that ends at the boatyard for a haul - the two activities should be disconnected so buyer has time to absorb the sea trial findings.

Suggestion to run engine at WOT for 10 minutes is a good one. All engine manufacturers provide that their engines in good working order will sustain this.

Owner should not be aboard, but owner (or owners broker) should have their representative operate the boat. Person should be knowledgeable jn the systems.

I used to provide an extensive checklist of gear to check during the inspection and sea trial.

New or nearly new boats are not immune to sea trial defects. Larger yachts having extensive electronics should have a separate electronics survey. Correcting a defect in electronics configuration can be difficult, time consuming, and very expensive. I recently watched an owner with a $1.5m 2014 power cat spend over $40k to fully correct all the electronics and network issues he inherited.

I will say that many of the owners I met who were significantly surprised post-purchase diminished or ignored warning signs. They have fallen in love with the boat before the inspection process and ignore warning signs. I remember one client who had already surveyed a couple boats with survey expenses. Despite yellow/red flags from his team of advisers (myself included), he proceeded. He had a troubled ownership experience.

Many surveyors are more comfortable giving candid advice verbally vs in writing. Mechanics, riggers, and other inspectors are often not skilled in preparing written reports so a verbal interaction is required.

I hope the OP gives the back story here as it would be instructive.

Peter

[hlev00]

We bought our first boat eight years ago. It is a Beneteau 423. We had never gone though the survey experience so weren't quite sure what to expect. All in all it was a positive one though. For the sea trial we had a beautiful day with 8-10 knots of wind. After the owner's rep (boat yard manager) took us out of the channel into an open area, the surveyor did some evaluation on engine WOT RPMs, steering gear action, and a few other mechanical. Then we raised the sails and went through a couple of tacks and a jibe. My wife and I were having a lovely sail but reality was everyone else was ready to get back in.


Don't expect too much but you should be able to get a look at the sails and feel for all of the sail handling bits. Halyards, winches, traveler, boom vang, etc. You won't really get to know the boat until you own her and are out and about. One example of something we missed on the sea trial was that the dodger was so high that we can't sheet then main in as far as we really need to in heavier winds.


To your actual question, bringing a friend along for support and another pair of eyes is great. For us it was my wife and me.



Good luck,
Harry

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by AliB

Thank you both for responding to my questions. I do understand the reason for the sea trial, I am just not clear on what my role is. Do I drive? Do I request sail changes? Do I insist on different points of sail? I have no idea about motors other than I can hear if one isn’t running properly. I have no idea how many requests or how long i should expect. My feeling is I should merely get a feel for how the boat sails on as many points of sail the weather permits. I’m sure I will need new sails.

Thank you again!
Ali B

My answer is "yes." I have done this on sea trials. First, it is important to be clear on this ahead of time, but within the limitations of time, they really can't refuse. They can mumble something about insurance, but if the own is present you can say "no dice, then."


Also request that there is some wind. Too many sea trials are just a run around the harbor in flat calm to check the motor. You want it kicking.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by AliB

Thank you both for responding to my questions. I do understand the reason for the sea trial, I am just not clear on what my role is. Do I drive? Do I request sail changes? Do I insist on different points of sail? I have no idea about motors other than I can hear if one isn’t running properly. I have no idea how many requests or how long i should expect. My feeling is I should merely get a feel for how the boat sails on as many points of sail the weather permits. I’m sure I will need new sails.

Thank you again!
Ali B

My answer is "yes." I have done this on sea trials. First, it is important to be clear on this ahead of time, but within the limitations of time, they really can't refuse. They can mumble something about insurance, but if the own is present you can say "no dice, then."


Also request that there is some wind. Too many sea trials are just a run around the harbor in flat calm to check the motor. You want it kicking.


And yes, it's good to set all of the sails, weather permitting (it may not be). You can look at a sail on the ground, but you can't see if it is blown out.

[rick bertram]

I sure would. Everything stated above is sound and good advice.

[bigdogandy]

Deleted.....

[CaptJPMcGuire]

You hold all the cards. Sail the boat like you plan to sail it. Put the 'crew' through a few tacks and gybs. Have a fun hour or so at the helm. If you find something you can't stand or scares the hell out of you. Walk away --you lose the cost of the survey and travel --you might need to pay the cost of re-hauling the boat. But do't take the sea trial as a joy ride your the official TEST PILIOT!
Good Luck --my best sea trials were on the not so good days. Rain and wind helps find problems or shows the lack there of

[Sherpa17]

I completely agree with this advice. You're there for a test drive and a thorough look under the hood.

Originally Posted by CaptJPMcGuire

You hold all the cards. Sail the boat like you plan to sail it. Put the 'crew' through a few tacks and gybs. Have a fun hour or so at the helm. If you find something you can't stand or scares the hell out of you. Walk away --you lose the cost of the survey and travel --you might need to pay the cost of re-hauling the boat. But do't take the sea trial as a joy ride your the official TEST PILIOT!
Good Luck --my best sea trials were on the not so good days. Rain and wind helps find problems or shows the lack there of

[Happ]

Originally Posted by AliB

Ok, thanks. Back to my original question. I want to drive the boat both under sail and motor. Is that typical? My concern is how I like the boat under sail, not just the efficacy. Yeah?
Cheers,
Ali B

Yes you want to do everything. Raise and trim sails. Drive the boat. By driving the boat you will be able to tell if it sails correctly on each tack. Imagine a slightly bent rudder post. You will certainly feel it steering. You want to raise sail to see what maintenance might be required. Worn out running gear, bad shives, etc. Take your time.

Tartan 0’s are nice boats. Hope it works out for you.

[Jim Cate]

Many years ago when I sold my Yankee 30 I employed a somewhat different procedure: after a day or so of dockside tire kicking our prospective customers were quite keen on the boat, but wanted a test sail. I said I'd give them a whole day's test, but for a significant "charter" fee. It was 100 bucks, but this was in 1983 when that was actually a reasonable days charter fee. If they bought the boat it was refunded, if not, I kept it.

So we spent about 8 hours sailing (on SF Bay). We started out in light airs, carrying the light air sails. As the day gathered strength we shifted down to the number 4 and reefed the main. We had some time with a kite up. The only thing missing was a sail with the storm jib up (not enough wind to really make that meaningful) but we got it out and showed them how we rigged it. We did a motor trial (Atomic 4) as well. Pretty much showed how everything worked... we had a good time, and the customers loved it.

The result? We sold her at asking price. She suffered an inspection by Jimmy Jessie, one of the most critical surveyors in the area, and passed with flying colors ("She's better than new condition").

This approach may not work if one is buying through a broker, but such a demonstration of a boat's qualities is worth the effort IMO. A fifteen minute motor around the harbour is hardly enough to make a decision upon.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Many years ago when I sold my Yankee 30 I employed a somewhat different procedure: after a day or so of dockside tire kicking our prospective customers were quite keen on the boat, but wanted a test sail. I said I'd give them a whole day's test, but for a significant "charter" fee. It was 100 bucks, but this was in 1983 when that was actually a reasonable days charter fee. If they bought the boat it was refunded, if not, I kept it.

So we spent about 8 hours sailing (on SF Bay). We started out in light airs, carrying the light air sails. As the day gathered strength we shifted down to the number 4 and reefed the main. We had some time with a kite up. The only thing missing was a sail with the storm jib up (not enough wind to really make that meaningful) but we got it out and showed them how we rigged it. We did a motor trial (Atomic 4) as well. Pretty much showed how everything worked... we had a good time, and the customers loved it.

The result? We sold her at asking price. She suffered an inspection by Jimmy Jessie, one of the most critical surveyors in the area, and passed with flying colors ("She's better than new condition").

This approach may not work if one is buying through a broker, but such a demonstration of a boat's qualities is worth the effort IMO. A fifteen minute motor around the harbour is hardly enough to make a decision upon.

Jim

^^^^

Plus, it gives you a farewell sail on a boat you've enjoyed....closure.

Ann