Is It Time to Stop Sailing?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by bushytales

Hi, frankly, I’m sitting here trying to work out what repair work is needed to spend US$200k. I am recently retired from building catamarans in Qld Aust - we always used epoxy in the construction and fortunately never had sensitivity problems.
We could build an entirely new boat for that sort of money...
Tell me, how big is the catamaran, what repairs are you wanting undertaken, where abouts is the boat? I might be able to put together a small working crew of cat builders and undertake the work for you - guess it depends on the factors I have asked about herein...cheers from Jeff

That figure is just what the rig, materials, and labor would cost to finish the catamaran. It needs an interior and a rig. I will DM you.

[Lepke]

I have allergies, too. Some known and many unknown. But life goes on and I didn't wish to live in a artificial environment. You can get by the epoxy problem with a breathing device and full protection. Good ventilation until it cures. The mold can be killed by specialists. There are shots for many allergies.

I have other disabilities and maybe that makes it easier for me to deal with the allergies. But you can sell the boat and live in some f'ing house or deal with it and enjoy life. You decide.

[hellosailor]

Lucky-
Plasma? Hmmm....to me that means really nasty hot and fierce stuff, although I'm told that the difference between plasma and 'highly charged gas' is matter of "potatoe, potato" with no universal agreement. I think they're just doing some sales puffery because "electrostatic air filter" is such an old and common term, and I'd bet that's what they're doing then. If you can't stick a piece of paper in the plasma and ignite it--then it is just charged gas, in my book. That will clean particulates out, but unlike UV-C it won't actually KILL things. Either way, it is cleaner air than without.

Chotu-
No interior, no rig, frp work still to be done...it sounds like less than half the boat, meaning less than half the cost and value. Or to turn that around, you've got to pay for a custom built boat before you're finished. (Ouch.) If you can afford that, great. If the expense is a killer, I'd reluctantly suggest cut your losses, sell both and find something that will be easier to keep sterilized.

[Chotu]

Hi Ben,

Thank you from the bottom of heart for this post. What I haven't been able to share because it's embarrassing is I don't have access to specialists and the medical system. I have a small business that doesn't support medical insurance plans at this time and am sort of waiting for a second small business to take off a bit so I can start medical plans through it. Even individual care doesn't work as it's state dependent and I'm a traveler. I'm rarely in my home state.

But to the points in your post...

It's incredible but aside from the advice to work with a specialist, I've done everything you suggested (starting about a year ago) and it worked!!

I have had very, very few reactions after finding out the dietary culprit to my inflammatory issues. If I may speak disgustingly and frankly, I was having intestinal issues. Very slow transit times, small rocks coming out very infrequently. I had this for a decade before I started to get serious about it and started playing around with diet. Mind you, all these allergies developed during this decade. So I narrowed it down by process of elimination and it turned out to be dairy protein that was causing my inflammatory state. I can no longer have dairy. A tiny razored off slice of butter here and there (since it has very little of the protein) and that's about it. I used to consume huge amounts of cheese and milk. No more. It has cleared up my intestinal issues and greatly reduced my never ending list of allergens down to just epoxy, citrus and mold. I am literally fine in the strongest pollen blooms now. It's amazing. For many it is gluten. For me it was casein/whey proteins.

Due to a little high cholesterol (both were very high, so not too bad), I had already switched to a plant based diet and I get most of my protein from legumes, seeds and pea protein. (among other things) I have a single egg with my oatmeal and fruit in the morning sometimes. I do eat chicken here and there. A burger maybe once a week or a bolognese sauce. I basically follow the mediterranean diet and have been doing so for about 6-8 months now. It's been just amazing. Feel like I'm 18 again. I'm careful to eat a complete selection of amino acids from the plants every day.

All my food has come from Whole Foods for decades now and has been organic and local. So I've already been eating healthy in that regard, but still was not eating right. Until the mostly plant based diet.

Your advice is absolutely spot on and I can attest to the fact that these things work. They really work!

My body still isn't happy about the amines in all epoxy hardeners, citrus (if I say, more than trace amounts of it), or breathing mold spores continuously. However, everything else has completely gone away. Doing exactly what you mentioned.

I don't seem to have upper airway involvement in my allergies. It stays wide open for all of them. The issue is deep in my lungs. I get short of breath there. The citrus reaction is really strange. No airway involvement whatsoever. I get stiff joints and a tiredness I can't shake for about 48 hours that keeps me in bed. Unless I take an antihistamine. Then I'm fine. Amines in epoxy hardener are the worst of all. Those have put me in the hospital more than once. From not being able to breathe deep in my lungs.

I should get that epipen though... you're right. My current defenses are to get out of dodge and down some liquid benadryl if bad. I also picked up deslotradine on a visit to canada and it has worked ok on light instances of the epoxy allergy, as well a the mold allergy. It's not an emergency medication since it takes about 30-40 mins to kick in, but it keeps me in good shape for about 24 hours.

My main concern is for long term damage and taking years off the end of my life by continually damaging my lungs. It seems like each attack makes my lungs work less well. So avoiding all attacks seems to be the way to go.

I will not be scrubbing any mold myself. At all. Staying far away from that project. But we have decided to wash away the mold (borax residue left behind helps it stay away) and ozone blast the place while unoccupied to try to get all the mold you can't reach on the monohull boat. To other posters, all boats have some mold. We are talking a very low level here that affects me. Something you wouldn't even notice. So it's not that the boat is a bad thing. It's that I'm too sensitive to the mold. To you, it's just a faint "boat smell." To me, it's "I can't breathe"

Is it right to depend on the antihistamines? I feel like taking them all the time can't be good for me and that correcting the source of the problem is the best approach. As in dietary changes, as have been done and just getting rid of mold where it shouldn't be. I can avoid citrus and epoxy pretty well.

Frankly, I have swam in enough epoxy at this point, I'm more worried about cancers and whatever else from that. I built my entire second boat, so I have had extreme exposure to epoxy. It came in 55 gallon drums.

Thanks again and I hope my very open and even more verbose response wasn't too much information.

Originally Posted by bensolomon

This will be mostly about the allergies, as that is my expertise, as a pulmonary and critical care physician. Far more skilled sailors and shipwrights than I on this forum.

Do not underestimate the threat to your respiratory status. Most people think that they will be able to tell when they're having a problem and get out of the environment. There are those times when the reaction is sudden and severe and there is no ability to call for help. Your desire to remediate the situation is understandably strong. If you were going to spend money, I would leave the remediation to the professionals and to remove yourself from potential fatal harm.

I'm going to make some recommendations below, however, you should go see a physician and be placed on some allergy medications while you implement the changes that I'm going to describe. This will keep you safer from having a potentially fatal airway emergency. You might also consider getting an EpiPen after consultation with your physician and carry it with you.

The fix for this is twofold. As an MD, we tend to be focused on the result or symptoms of a particular disease and quite often don't look at the cause. I believe you are having one of these situations. These allergies have occurred later in life and therefore you, physiologically, are in an inflammatory state. The most common cause of this nowadays, is diet. We now know that gluten is placed in almost all foods to create a craving for the food. Therefore, I would recommend you move to a gluten-free diet or as much as you can. Secondly, shift to mostly a plant-based diet if you can. Limit your animal protein to eggs, fish, and organic chicken.

Allergen avoidance is very important for obvious reasons. However, implementing change to reduce inflammatory characteristics of your own body will make a huge difference in how you feel.

I have purposely talk in generalities as I don't want to prescribe medical advice in this forum. to answer your original question, you will not have to give up sailing. You will have to make some lifestyle modifications as described, and seek appropriate medical Care.

if you were my patient, I would maximize your anti-allergy regimen with medications to control your symptoms while we alter your lifestyle as described. Once you adjusted to the lifestyle modifications, then I would peel back the medications one at a time to see your response. That should give you a template if you choose to go this path. As I stated before, you should not have to give up sailing because of this.

I do apologize for the verbosity of my response. I wish you all the best and keep a positive attitude. That, above all else, is the most important.

Ben

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Lucky-
Plasma? Hmmm....to me that means really nasty hot and fierce stuff, although I'm told that the difference between plasma and 'highly charged gas' is matter of "potatoe, potato" with no universal agreement. I think they're just doing some sales puffery because "electrostatic air filter" is such an old and common term, and I'd bet that's what they're doing then. If you can't stick a piece of paper in the plasma and ignite it--then it is just charged gas, in my book. That will clean particulates out, but unlike UV-C it won't actually KILL things. Either way, it is cleaner air than without.

Chotu-
No interior, no rig, frp work still to be done...it sounds like less than half the boat, meaning less than half the cost and value. Or to turn that around, you've got to pay for a custom built boat before you're finished. (Ouch.) If you can afford that, great. If the expense is a killer, I'd reluctantly suggest cut your losses, sell both and find something that will be easier to keep sterilized.

Don't mix the boats up. My monohull has some mold. The catamaran is and has always been completely mold free. I built it to be that way. Clean, smooth, white, non porous surfaces made of epoxy. Lots of ventilation. No mold has ever grown in the catamaran.

Or, do you mean get rid of all boats? And move on?

[svsonora]

Sorry about the health problems. As someone exposed to expoxy more than I would like, can I ask how your habits were when working with epoxy? I try to wear my respirator and latex gloves every time. But sometimes, for example, when working outdoors on a windy day, I skip it out of laziness or forgetfulness or whatever. And even when I'm gloved up, some will get on my arm or find its way through a hole on the glove. I'm wondering if epoxy allergies are unpreventable. Any advice on how to step up the protective gear game?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by svsonora

Sorry about the health problems. As someone exposed to expoxy more than I would like, can I ask how your habits were when working with epoxy? I try to wear my respirator and latex gloves every time. But sometimes, for example, when working outdoors on a windy day, I skip it out of laziness or forgetfulness or whatever. And even when I'm gloved up, some will get on my arm or find its way through a hole on the glove. I'm wondering if epoxy allergies are unpreventable. Any advice on how to step up the protective gear game?

I was always getting epoxy on my wrists, from using an epoxy covered glove to remove the other glove. I'd begin to develop a rash.

Barrier cream stopped this.

Epoxy allergy affects people differently. Bob Oram has worked with epoxy for decades, in the old days he took no precautions, and has no problems. Some people have had far less exposure and are severely affected.

It's effects are cumulative. Avoiding exposure as much as possible is the best you can do.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by svsonora

Sorry about the health problems. As someone exposed to expoxy more than I would like, can I ask how your habits were when working with epoxy? I try to wear my respirator and latex gloves every time. But sometimes, for example, when working outdoors on a windy day, I skip it out of laziness or forgetfulness or whatever. And even when I'm gloved up, some will get on my arm or find its way through a hole on the glove. I'm wondering if epoxy allergies are unpreventable. Any advice on how to step up the protective gear game?

After much research, here is what I know about that. Everyone has a certain amount of epoxy they can be exposed to before they become sensitized. That amount is different for everyone.

You could swim in it your whole Life and never have a problem. The next person could get a little bit on their wrist and start breaking out.

I used gloves all the time. I was meticulous about showering and getting that stuff off of me if any got on me. We cleaned up with vinegar constantly. We worked as neat as possible.

My hulls and connective members were resin infused. So there was no epoxy exposure building the hull panels or connective beam panels. I was mixing 5 gallon buckets of epoxy as fast as I could and dumping them into the infusion intake.

In tabbing the boat together and installing bulkheads, that was a different situation. Sometimes there would be epoxy in a place you didn’t expect. You would come through after the job and rest your hand on something. And it would have epoxt on it. Then you would go clean your hand off.

One thing I can suggest is always use vinegar. Do not use a solvent to clean the epoxy off. Apparently that drives it deeper into your body. Vinegar neutralizes the basic amines in the Hardner. And washes off the BPA from the other part.

Later in the project, I started wearing a full suit, and forced air respiration. Just like hello sailor says. I was wearing a space suit. But it was too hot where I was building. They were very few days that I could use it. I at least opted to wear a forced air face mask at all times. I mixed every drop of epoxy in the entire boat. I had some help applying it. But I probably applied one half of it also.

The only tips I could really give you are to be neat and clean. And to clean up constantly. And not to be messy and get it everywhere. Most of my exposure came from after the suits came off and after the gloves came off. You go walking through the project admiring your work or something, and someone spilled epoxy somewhere and you didn’t know about it.

In the beginning, I was breathing it. I was not using a mask. It seems very benign. Seems like nothing that could ever hurt you. But make no mistake. It is a serious chemical. You are better off protecting your breathing entirely from the start. You should not be able to smell any epoxy at all. I’m pretty sure my respiratory problems when I get a reaction to epoxy came from those times when I was just using it without any type of lung protection.

Solvents, polyester, paint, all of that stuff stinks. It lets you know right away that you should protect your lungs. Eooxy does not let you know that. It seems so benign and harmless. However, it is giving off chemicals that you can become sensitized to. So the less you are exposed to them, the more room you have left before you run into the wall of becoming sensitized.

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Hi Ben,

Thank you from the bottom of heart for this post. What I haven't been able to share because it's embarrassing is I don't have access to specialists and the medical system. I have a small business that doesn't support medical insurance plans at this time and am sort of waiting for a second small business to take off a bit so I can start medical plans through it. Even individual care doesn't work as it's state dependent and I'm a traveler. I'm rarely in my home state.

But to the points in your post...

It's incredible but aside from the advice to work with a specialist, I've done everything you suggested (starting about a year ago) and it worked!!

I have had very, very few reactions after finding out the dietary culprit to my inflammatory issues. If I may speak disgustingly and frankly, I was having intestinal issues. Very slow transit times, small rocks coming out very infrequently. I had this for a decade before I started to get serious about it and started playing around with diet. Mind you, all these allergies developed during this decade. So I narrowed it down by process of elimination and it turned out to be dairy protein that was causing my inflammatory state. I can no longer have dairy. A tiny razored off slice of butter here and there (since it has very little of the protein) and that's about it. I used to consume huge amounts of cheese and milk. No more. It has cleared up my intestinal issues and greatly reduced my never ending list of allergens down to just epoxy, citrus and mold. I am literally fine in the strongest pollen blooms now. It's amazing. For many it is gluten. For me it was casein/whey proteins.

Due to a little high cholesterol (both were very high, so not too bad), I had already switched to a plant based diet and I get most of my protein from legumes, seeds and pea protein. (among other things) I have a single egg with my oatmeal and fruit in the morning sometimes. I do eat chicken here and there. A burger maybe once a week or a bolognese sauce. I basically follow the mediterranean diet and have been doing so for about 6-8 months now. It's been just amazing. Feel like I'm 18 again. I'm careful to eat a complete selection of amino acids from the plants every day.

All my food has come from Whole Foods for decades now and has been organic and local. So I've already been eating healthy in that regard, but still was not eating right. Until the mostly plant based diet.

Your advice is absolutely spot on and I can attest to the fact that these things work. They really work!

My body still isn't happy about the amines in all epoxy hardeners, citrus (if I say, more than trace amounts of it), or breathing mold spores continuously. However, everything else has completely gone away. Doing exactly what you mentioned.

I don't seem to have upper airway involvement in my allergies. It stays wide open for all of them. The issue is deep in my lungs. I get short of breath there. The citrus reaction is really strange. No airway involvement whatsoever. I get stiff joints and a tiredness I can't shake for about 48 hours that keeps me in bed. Unless I take an antihistamine. Then I'm fine. Amines in epoxy hardener are the worst of all. Those have put me in the hospital more than once. From not being able to breathe deep in my lungs.

I should get that epipen though... you're right. My current defenses are to get out of dodge and down some liquid benadryl if bad. I also picked up deslotradine on a visit to canada and it has worked ok on light instances of the epoxy allergy, as well a the mold allergy. It's not an emergency medication since it takes about 30-40 mins to kick in, but it keeps me in good shape for about 24 hours.

My main concern is for long term damage and taking years off the end of my life by continually damaging my lungs. It seems like each attack makes my lungs work less well. So avoiding all attacks seems to be the way to go.

I will not be scrubbing any mold myself. At all. Staying far away from that project. But we have decided to wash away the mold (borax residue left behind helps it stay away) and ozone blast the place while unoccupied to try to get all the mold you can't reach on the monohull boat. To other posters, all boats have some mold. We are talking a very low level here that affects me. Something you wouldn't even notice. So it's not that the boat is a bad thing. It's that I'm too sensitive to the mold. To you, it's just a faint "boat smell." To me, it's "I can't breathe"

Is it right to depend on the antihistamines? I feel like taking them all the time can't be good for me and that correcting the source of the problem is the best approach. As in dietary changes, as have been done and just getting rid of mold where it shouldn't be. I can avoid citrus and epoxy pretty well.

Frankly, I have swam in enough epoxy at this point, I'm more worried about cancers and whatever else from that. I built my entire second boat, so I have had extreme exposure to epoxy. It came in 55 gallon drums.

Thanks again and I hope my very open and even more verbose response wasn't too much information.

Chotu,

From a pulmonary perspective, it sounds as though you may be having what we call bronchospasm. Many people would make it analogous to an asthma attack. Asthma increases in incidence with each decade of life. I can't completely explain the joint pains following exposure as asthma, however. That's where some routine laboratory testing would come in handy. Do you ever hear yourself wheezing?

As far as the insurability issues, you can walk into any physician's office and pay a walk-in fee. You don't need insurance to be seen. Also, most of the medications we used to treat asthma are generic at this point it would not cost you much at all.

Empirically, you have discovered that antihistamines help you. That is one of the mechanisms of bronchospasm and using antihistamines is beneficial. In fact, you should probably be on antihistamines daily. There is another class of agent called leukotriene inhibitor, of which singulair is one. You would also find that helpful. There are few other inhalers and medications that could be used to help mitigate your pulmonary symptoms You most definitely should be under the guidance of a physician, though, as you titrate these medications.

If you ever find yourself in my stretch of water, let me know. I can evaluate you and get you on the right track. My care and evaluation will be free. Save the money for other things, like prescriptions, and some routine labs.

Also, never be afraid to seek medical care in an emergency room. You will be cared for regardless of insurance or ability to pay.

Ben

[bensolomon]

I forgot to mention .....great job on the lifestyle modifications! If you notice I specifically left out dairy as one of the protein sources for the reasons you mentioned.

Ben

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

Chotu,

From a pulmonary perspective, it sounds as though you may be having what we call bronchospasm. Many people would make it analogous to an asthma attack. Asthma increases in incidence with each decade of life. I can't completely explain the joint pains following exposure as asthma, however. That's where some routine laboratory testing would come in handy. Do you ever hear yourself wheezing?

As far as the insurability issues, you can walk into any physician's office and pay a walk-in fee. You don't need insurance to be seen. Also, most of the medications we used to treat asthma are generic at this point it would not cost you much at all.

Empirically, you have discovered that antihistamines help you. That is one of the mechanisms of bronchospasm and using antihistamines is beneficial. In fact, you should probably be on antihistamines daily. There is another class of agent called leukotriene inhibitor, of which singulair is one. You would also find that helpful. There are few other inhalers and medications that could be used to help mitigate your pulmonary symptoms You most definitely should be under the guidance of a physician, though, as you titrate these medications.

If you ever find yourself in my stretch of water, let me know. I can evaluate you and get you on the right track. My care and evaluation will be free. Save the money for other things, like prescriptions, and some routine labs.

Also, never be afraid to seek medical care in an emergency room. You will be cared for regardless of insurance or ability to pay.

Ben

Wow, Ben.

I’m really moved by your generosity with both your time and knowledge here, as well as the offer to do an evaluation in the Chesapeake area. Thank you so, so much.

If there is anything I can do in return, boatwise or otherwise, please let me know.

I'm even happy to pay for your rate/time. The issue is I seem to always be billed the "insurance rate" by medical providers. I stepped on a nail 6 months ago and went in for a teatnus shot. $60 at Walmart for one of these. Got nothing more than a shot and went home. No other services. No evaluation. Was billed $550 just for the shot. That's what's been keeping me away from paying for an allergist. The out of pocket charges are always at top tier for some reason.

In any case, thank you very much for your contribution to this thread. It's probably the most helpful thing I've ever seen online.

I'll follow up at the end of summer to look into some treatment. For now, hiring out mold cleanup and ozone blasting the boat to see if I can bring the spore count down to a low enough level.

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Wow, Ben.

I’m really moved by your generosity with both your time and knowledge here, as well as the offer to do an evaluation in the Chesapeake area. Thank you so, so much.

If there is anything I can do in return, boatwise or otherwise, please let me know.

I'm even happy to pay for your rate/time. The issue is I seem to always be billed the "insurance rate" by medical providers. I stepped on a nail 6 months ago and went in for a teatnus shot. $60 at Walmart for one of these. Got nothing more than a shot and went home. No other services. No evaluation. Was billed $550 just for the shot. That's what's been keeping me away from paying for an allergist. The out of pocket charges are always at top tier for some reason.

In any case, thank you very much for your contribution to this thread. It's probably the most helpful thing I've ever seen online.

I'll follow up at the end of summer to look into some treatment. For now, hiring out mold cleanup and ozone blasting the boat to see if I can bring the spore count down to a low enough level.

Sean,

Thanks for the offer. I need nothing. I already have as much as I need, in general. I'm happy to help. I replied to your private message. Let's try to get you back on track.

Ben

[BlackHeron]

I have a very similar milk sensitivity that I have suffered with most of my life until it came a head about a year ago. The inflammation issues got worse and worse as I got older. But looking back I can see they were giving me grief from my early teens. I wonder if the severe acne In suffered in adolescence was related.

Cutting out all dairy from my diet currently it but I still get into it every once in a while, and suffer the consequences. I'm like a recovering addict having relapses. I do miss it. I lose my willpower around Pizza, get into it knowingly and unknowingly at maybe a potluck or cruiser's get-together with some hidden dairy in the food, or something ntoo delectable to tempt me. So I don't even like to eat out any more.

I also have an issue with soy oil, not the protein, but the oil. I can literally drink soy sauce or eat a bit of tofu. I can have stuff with soy protein in it, but something cooked, fried, or baked with any soy oil and I have issues. I don't like to go to a bakery any more as more and more places use soy oil in everything because it is cheaper. Every grocery trip is reading every list of ingredients.

I have always been very careful with epoxy and polyester resins. I won't go near the stuff when in liquid form, mixing, working with it, laying glass, or afterwards until it is fully cured without a good 3M respirator with newer organic filters. I see so many friends and other boaters I know go without any respirator at all or use worthless paper masks when mixing, applying, and sanding fiberglass projects. Crazy. Take care of your lungs and don't breathe in bad stuff. It goes right into your blood stream and is distributed literally everywhere inside your body.

[Chotu]

Pizza was also my favorite food. But you know what? It doesn’t have to stop. You just have to make your own pizza. I’m currently using a product called earth island vegan gourmet shreds. It can be found at whole foods. This is a reasonable substitute for the cheese. It’s not going to be good. LOL but it’s adequate. Just load your favorite toppings on the pizza and continue to enjoy them with this stuff as the background. There is also another cheese substitute for pizza called Daiya. I wouldn’t say it’s as good as this other one I am using. This other one is a little bit more like real cheese. And the one I’m using has no soy in it. I’m not sure what the ingredients are for Daiya.

When it comes to milk, try out rice milk. It’s not great for diabetes, it’s got quite a bit of sugar, but then sodas real milk actually. It’s the one substitute I have found that tastes closest to the real thing. You don’t want to chug a glass of it, but to have it with a breakfast cereal or to cook with it in place of milk works great.

There are also some good Haagen Dazs and Ben & Jerry’s nondairy ice cream’s. I believe those are like cashew-based or something. Some of the chocolate ones really do the trick. They taste OK.

Your taste will change. You won’t really even want the dairy anymore after a while. Just keep with it. Try some of these substitutes. They are not going to be great, but you will get used to them pretty quickly and then dairy doesn’t taste as good anymore.

The cheese substitutes are pretty high in fat. And it’s bad fat. Saturated fat. Palm oil. But you use a lot less of it than real cheese because it doesn’t taste fantastic. So you don’t end up having as much fat in a sitting.

It can certainly get you through those pizza cravings though.

Reach out anytime if you need any tips on the non-dairy diet. I have put a lot of time into it.

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

I have a very similar milk sensitivity that I have suffered with most of my life until it came a head about a year ago. The inflammation issues got worse and worse as I got older. But looking back I can see they were giving me grief from my early teens. I wonder if the severe acne In suffered in adolescence was related.

Cutting out all dairy from my diet currently it but I still get into it every once in a while, and suffer the consequences. I'm like a recovering addict having relapses. I do miss it. I lose my willpower around Pizza, get into it knowingly and unknowingly at maybe a potluck or cruiser's get-together with some hidden dairy in the food, or something ntoo delectable to tempt me. So I don't even like to eat out any more.

I also have an issue with soy oil, not the protein, but the oil. I can literally drink soy sauce or eat a bit of tofu. I can have stuff with soy protein in it, but something cooked, fried, or baked with any soy oil and I have issues. I don't like to go to a bakery any more as more and more places use soy oil in everything because it is cheaper. Every grocery trip is reading every list of ingredients.

I have always been very careful with epoxy and polyester resins. I won't go near the stuff when in liquid form, mixing, working with it, laying glass, or afterwards until it is fully cured without a good 3M respirator with newer organic filters. I see so many friends and other boaters I know go without any respirator at all or use worthless paper masks when mixing, applying, and sanding fiberglass projects. Crazy. Take care of your lungs and don't breathe in bad stuff. It goes right into your blood stream and is distributed literally everywhere inside your body.

[BlackHeron]

Thanks. I'm well informed on the alternatives. But we know they don't hit that exact spot. I was a 3-gallon/week milk drinker and could easily consume a pound or more of cheese in a day.

My milk substitute of choice now is unsweetened almond milk. Rice milk is just too sweet and high in carbs for me. I'm not big on carbs and don't much crave wheet at all. About the only wheat I eat now is the occasional matzo cracker, the kind that comes from Israel and doesn't contain any GMOs. I wonder if a lot of the gluten sensitivity people really have is with the modern US gmoseed stock.