Is your boat part of your Doomsday Plan?

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by RPZ

But "cyber attacks" on the grid are just bs.

Tell that to Ukraine. Read this: https://www.wired.com/2016/03/inside...es-power-grid/

Greg

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Did you read about Stuxnet? Why would you think it would be done or have to be done via the internet, there are many ways some as simple as simply allowing the virus out via the internet,odds are it will then find its way to the targeted source by any one of several means.

On edit, I am not saying it will ever happen, just that in my opinion cyberwarfare is a real possibility, one that has actually been waged for years.
Take a look and see if the Pentagon takes it seriously.

I know about "stuxnet", but it is not logical, technically. Grid power systems, like a closed circuit TV, are not accessible from the web. It would have to be someone with a direct power plant system access console. Any virus would have to be input there. Its like saying someone could " hack" the flight computer on your Apache Longbow helicopter from the web. Only someone in the cockpit could do that, and I doubt it could even be done from there.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Tell that to Ukraine. Read this: https://www.wired.com/2016/03/inside...es-power-grid/

Greg

Ask them what website was attacked. There isn't one. There is no website accessible from the www to go to and hack a power grid system. You can not access a closed system from the www. It is a physical and scientific impossibility. The only possible way is if the closed system had open direct wireless access, and I have never heard of a major infrastructure system that had open wireless access. Now if an infiltrator works for a power generation company, has console access, yes, they could introduce a virus or disrupt the system. Otherwise it can't be done. Its bs. A concerted media hoax.

[CarinaPDX]

@RPZ-

Read the damn article. If you don't trust Wired, look elsewhere. It is extremely well documented. This attack happened over the internet, and the route used succeeded in accessing the SCADA network over time. And our grid has far worse security (and logging) than in Ukraine. [Edit: contrary to popular opinion, the control networks are NOT air-gapped, although that certainly should be the case. Even then, Stuxnet showed that air gaps are permeable.]

Please stop saying it isn't possible: it is, and it has been shown in the real world.

Greg

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

@RPZ-

Read the damn article. If you don't trust Wired, look elsewhere. It is extremely well documented. This attack happened over the internet, and the route used succeeded in accessing the SCADA network over time. And our grid has far worse security (and logging) than in Ukraine.

Please stop saying it isn't possible: it is, and it has been shown in the real world.

Greg

I have followed this stuff for a decade.

NAME the website that was "hacked" to gain access. Name it. Ask Wired to NAME it. They can't, because there isn't one.

This hoax is to "justify" more controls on individual internet access. It is technically impossible. Ask someone who works at a powerplant. They have closed circuit control systems.

[LEOCAT66]

Yes it is. Not just a part but a primary part. The only place on the planet which can provide long term survival potential. We are quite well equipped and provisioned in all respects.

[a64pilot]

I don't understand your insistence that power plants aren't connected to the internet so therefore cyberwarefare doesn't exist.
My friend they don't have to be connected to anything, just have computer control systems, there are many other ways, yes Humint or human intelligence is one way, low tech but you don't give away your capabilities that way.
You or I can't truly imagine the possibilities, but try to trust me, what is possible, assuming no limit as to budget, personnel and equipment, is amazing.

That helicopter thing, more than 15 yrs ago, I could unmask, just exposing the Radome for three seconds and scan the battlefield, then remask. Within seconds the computer had classified, prioritized, identified and prioritized 128 targets, sectored the battlefield, assigned targets to individual aircraft, made priority fire zones, restricted fire zones and prohibited fire zones. Nobody had to expose their aircraft, we could all launch on 128 targets and turn and go home.
That is real, it works, and is decades old tech, that is fielded to regular military and Janes reported on it decades ago, this is not the cutting edge at all.
Decades ago we developed the ability to communicate over millions and millions of miles with a tiny little transceiver with a tiny antenna and maybe what 1/4 watt power?
Geez, we put men on the moon 50 years ago.
Trust me, the technology exists to install software on a computer that is not connected to the internet

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by RPZ

I have followed this stuff for a decade.

So have all of us in the professional computer community. Yours is not a mainstream opinion.

NAME the website that was "hacked" to gain access. Name it. Ask Wired to NAME it. They can't, because there isn't one.

Correct, sort of. You see, the "web" is a subset of the "internet". Just because there is no web page does not mean there is no internet access.

In this case a spear-phishing attack (emails containing malware directed at power company employees) allowed the hackers access to the corporate networks. They scoured them to find credentials that enabled them to log into the SCADA control network through the firewall between the SCADA network and the internet. They were connected; the companies were counting on the firewall to work, which it did - but without 2-factor credentials it worked for anyone with a valid username/password.

You would have known this if you had bothered to read the article. Beliefs are not facts...

This hoax is to "justify" more controls on individual internet access. It is technically impossible. Ask someone who works at a powerplant. They have closed circuit control systems.

No, they only think they do. Our grids, like everywhere else in the industrialized world, have control systems connected to the internet. It shouldn't be so, but it is. This is not a hoax.

Greg

[adoxograph]

Originally Posted by RPZ

I think the web attack thing is bs. At least in the context it is popularly presented. The power grids etc are closed systems - you can not just go to "www.powergrid.com", " hack it" and shut down the grid. The control systems are not connected to the worldwide web. It would have to be someone working within the grid infrastructure who has direct console access to the control systems.

EMP is another issue. Popular Mechanics magazine posted an article a decade ago about how easy it is to make an EMP bomb for about $400. That, a high altitude nuke, or a naturally produced EMP is a plausible and real potential catastrophe.

I could be wrong, but I don't know of any device that would produce an EMP that causes substantial widespread damage. The energy needed to produce a pulse high enough is just too high. Even the effect of a nuke is only locally and the damage of the energy released by fission/fusion will be much higher than the impact of the EMP it caused.

Solar flares and geomagnetic events are a different pair of shoes.

However, a power outage (for whatever reason) or internet failure will cause chaos. Just imagine what will happen if your credit card is not working or no-one can get money out of ATM's?

Will you be save on a boat? I think yes, at least for a while, but only if you prepare early. But the story will change when you need to restock your supplies.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don't understand your insistence that power plants aren't connected to the internet so therefore cyberwarefare doesn't exist.
My friend they don't have to be connected to anything, just have computer control systems, there are many other ways, yes Humint or human intelligence is one way, low tech but you don't give away your capabilities that way.
You or I can't truly imagine the possibilities, but try to trust me, what is possible, assuming no limit as to budget, personnel and equipment, is amazing.

That helicopter thing, more than 15 yrs ago, I could unmask, just exposing the Radome for three seconds and scan the battlefield, then remask. Within seconds the computer had classified, prioritized, identified and prioritized 128 targets, sectored the battlefield, assigned targets to individual aircraft, made priority fire zones, restricted fire zones and prohibited fire zones. Nobody had to expose their aircraft, we could all launch on 128 targets and turn and go home.
That is real, it works, and is decades old tech, that is fielded to regular military and Janes reported on it decades ago, this is not the cutting edge at all.
Decades ago we developed the ability to communicate over millions and millions of miles with a tiny little transceiver with a tiny antenna and maybe what 1/4 watt power?
Geez, we put men on the moon 50 years ago.
Trust me, the technology exists to install software on a computer that is not connected to the internet

Aware of all that. We have lost drones because they were wirelessly accessed.

What I am in essence saying is that a disruption of major powergrids would have to be an inside job. Someone with direct console access. I keep getting "reminded of stuxnet". But no one will say what WEBSITE the operator used to gain access. There isn't one that can somehow shutdown power plants. If it were that simple it would happening on a daily basis, like the hacks into personal banking, credit card databases etc. It ain't happening.

Even if it were possible the fix is easy - remove the physical hard drive in the control system, replace with last clean default back up. Power is up and running in minures or hours. There is no reason to accept the idea that it could be disrupted longer than that.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

So have all of us in the professional computer community. Yours is not a mainstream opinion.



Correct, sort of. You see, the "web" is a subset of the "internet". Just because there is no web page does not mean there is no internet access.

In this case a spear-phishing attack (emails containing malware directed at power company employees) allowed the hackers access to the corporate networks. They scoured them to find credentials that enabled them to log into the SCADA control network through the firewall between the SCADA network and the internet. They were connected; the companies were counting on the firewall to work, which it did - but without 2-factor credentials it worked for anyone with a valid username/password.

You would have known this if you had bothered to read the article. Beliefs are not facts...



No, they only think they do. Our grids, like everywhere else in the industrialized world, have control systems connected to the internet. It shouldn't be so, but it is. This is not a hoax.

Greg

Mainstream opinion is that McDonalds hamburgers are safe healthy food because the FDA says so.

If access was so easy to power plant systems Al Kidya and 1,001 one of our tangible enemies would be doing this on a daily basis. And as I have said, the remedy is easy; remove controlling system hard drive, replace with default hard drive, system back up and running. It is not something that would wreck the power grid and cause an ongoing catastrophe.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by RPZ

What I am in essence saying is that a disruption of major powergrids would have to be an inside job. Someone with direct console access. I keep getting "reminded of stuxnet". But no one will say what WEBSITE the operator used to gain access. There isn't one that can somehow shutdown power plants. If it were that simple it would happen ing on a daily basis, like the hacks into personal banking, credit card databases etc. It ain't happening.

I guess you still refuse to read the article. It doesn't take an insider; it only takes his credentials. It does take an intimate knowledge of the SCADA system, which likely means someone with power grid knowledge was involved. And it took them 6 months to map the system and prepare. But that is all - there is no evidence that anyone inside of Ukraine had any involvement, not would that have been necessary.

Even if it were possible the fix is easy - remove the physical hard drive in the control system, replace with last clean default back up. Power is up and running in minures or hours. There is no reason to accept the idea that it could be disrupted longer than that.

READ THE DAMN ARTICLE!!!! The hackers reprogrammed the firmware in the critical serial-to-ethernet adapters, which not only prevented them from doing their jobs but also prevented them from being reprogrammed. They are all needing replacement. The Ukraine grid is only working now because they are switching manually - something parts of our grid can't do.

Greg

[a64pilot]

You assume that we have a bunch of idiots running things. I can assure you that in spite of popular opinion and Hollywood saying so, that in fact we have some very intelligent people in the military, in charge.
I believe that in fact that we do have enemies that in fact are trying, however I also believe that we have bunches of young, brilliant kids if you will that are preventing that, on a day to day basis.

I believe there is a lot going on that we are not privy to.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by RPZ

If access was so easy to power plant systems Al Kidya and 1,001 one of our tangible enemies would be doing this on a daily basis.

No one said it was easy.

And as I have said, the remedy is easy; remove controlling system hard drive, replace with default hard drive, system back up and running. It is not something that would wreck the power grid and cause an ongoing catastrophe.

Wrong again. Malware does not just live in the hard drive. At this level of sophistication it can live in the firmware of many parts of the computer system: hard drives, keyboards, system management (cooling, etc), GPUs, etc. With some attacks, like Stuxnet and the more recent attack on the Saudi oil refinery, all of the computers have to be destroyed. In this case (Ukraine) permanent damage was done to part of the control network, most of which is controlled by firmware in each device. Once a system is compromised just changing the hard disk is not nearly enough. This is not typical malware on a desktop system.

Greg

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I guess you still refuse to read the article. It doesn't take an insider; it only takes his credentials. It does take an intimate knowledge of the SCADA system, which likely means someone with power grid knowledge was involved. And it took them 6 months to map the system and prepare. But that is all - there is no evidence that anyone inside of Ukraine had any involvement, not would that have been necessary.



READ THE DAMN ARTICLE!!!! The hackers reprogrammed the firmware in the critical serial-to-ethernet adapters, which not only prevented them from doing their jobs but also prevented them from being reprogrammed. They are all needing replacement. The Ukraine grid is only working now because they are switching manually - something parts of our grid can't do.

Greg

Like I said, inside job. And that is a real tangible threat. Same goes for airlines for instance. Mechanics, refuelers, airplane cleaners, baggage handlers, caterers, all have access. If a bomb is going to planted on an airplane this is how it is going to get on there.

Our systems don't need reprogramming in such an instance, you physically remove the harddrives and replace them with a clean default and reboot. It is that simple.