Ken Barnes' Description of Situation

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Oh, and I was single handing when I took that photo

I didn't know that!!! Talk about a precarious position to get that shot.

"Her name is Rio and she dances on the sand.... just like that river (WHOOPS!! SPLASH!!!!!)"

That is an even cooler shot now that we know you were singlehanding on it. Very nice.

Thanks Sean. Been up there many times to change or drop the headsail. Great view though

[dana-tenacity]

Ok, different circumstance.
I'll stick with my opinion that in extreme conditions, offshore, the safest place to be is down below, preferably in a quarter berth or under the table , and well protected by cushions/pillows or similar. Ideally before the weather got to you, you had hot food and plenty to drink.
To achieve this you must be able to make the boat take the desired attitude to sea and wind and an autopilot will not be powerful enough.
In large breaking seas that will normally mean either hove-to if the wind is blowing the wrong way or running. I believe that as conditions deteriorate heaving to becomes less easy to manage and eventually you'll be better off running ( bare poles and a drogue), Some like sea anchors, if you are one of them fine but I have serious reservations about them and would feel happier as described.
I would oppose lying ahull or anything that risked getting beam on.
If you don't have the sea room to run you have a problem.
If antone can offer more I'm always interested.

[coot]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

He has to choose between a machine that can't handle the seas and possibly a tired self who can't handle them either (pure speculation that he was tired).

I just assume that anybody who is single-handing for more than about a day is tired at all times. I get tired even with regular off-watch time and other crew on the boat. And, of course, being in rough conditions makes a person tired faster than usual and interferes with the ability to rest.

My question is: If you were worried about your buddy/boyfriend/whoever out at sea, why would you spend your time updated websites on a minute by minute basis? Don't you think you would be freaking out and stressed? It is very odd that his site was updated every few hours during the ordeal, mentioning each story that came out in the media. This is not normal behavior for someone who is worried about Ken's well being.

Certainly, the guy on the boat is more stressed than the one left safe at home, and everybody seems to have high expectations for his ability to function. Why would you think somebody at home worrying would be so incapacitated that they can't update a web site?

For that matter, if you are the one at home, what else can you do?

[Trim50]

Dana-T,

Based on my limited but extreme case experience, I must say that the size of the seas really wasn't the issue other than for steering. Once you got the rythm of the sets, it was quite fun.

The danger was the wind. I experienced gusts to 60knts and I'm sure that if they had gotten any stronger than that, I might be talking a much different story. However, I've never experience anything worse, on land or sea.

Now, with respect to Ken Barnes, 35knts is a walk in the park for a keel boat. As for the seas...I think I've said enough.

[Trim50]

Originally Posted by henkmeuzelaar

Aw cmon guys......I can get more serious answers than that on alt.sailing.asa!

It's not hard to see why these threads run on & on & on & on here.

Drop the hook at Project MARC's humble HQ in the Maskelynes (Vanuatu) someday and we'll have a Tusker beer.

Have fun

Flying Dutchman

Don't you sail a Hunter????

[CSY Man]

Yep, likewise. When I read Bumfuzzle, I see myself when I was younger...totally unafraid and oblivious to the danger. I even hated “yachties” because they looked down their nose at me because I was young with a nice boat. Now I’m getting to be an old cruiser yachty myself…and enjoying it.

Well, that was me too:
Young and with nice boat.
Did not really have a clue, but tried to learn by listening and trying stuff.

Never sailed in my life before, neither had my wife but we bought a 44' Bill Tripp Bermuda racer and moved aboard right away, then started sailing. Never had the feeling anybody was looking down the noses, old or new yachties. Instead they were glad to see us "do it".

Just like I am happy to see the Bums and others do the same...Go for it I'd say.

With my limited experience back then I did not try to circumnavigate, solo or dual, did not have to prove anything, or write weg blogs aboat it. Just enjoyed cruising the Caribe on my own boat.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

This isn't monday morning quarterbacking. This is a legitimate discussion of what can go wrong in a specific situation and a sharing of ideas on how to prevent such a situation from happening in the future. If we all just sit back and go "great job!" without digging through the possibilities, the loss of his vessel will do nothing to help the greater sailing community. He should ignore those mean folks that give him a hard time, but should understand the need for those that go to sea to put themselves in his shoes and talk through what might have been the cause and/or appropriate actions to take. It's educational for all of us.

Sean, I absolutely agree. I think we can simultaneously sympathize with Ken's plight while trying to figure out what went wrong. In the process, we speculate based on the evidence we have and try out different theories. It's all very educational and I think can show this forum at its best.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Trim50

Dana-T,

Based on my limited but extreme case experience, I must say that the size of the seas really wasn't the issue other than for steering. Once you got the rythm of the sets, it was quite fun.

The danger was the wind. I experienced gusts to 60knts and I'm sure that if they had gotten any stronger than that, I might be talking a much different story. However, I've never experience anything worse, on land or sea.

Now, with respect to Ken Barnes, 35knts is a walk in the park for a keel boat. As for the seas...I think I've said enough.

From my limited but extreme case experience, I would say it was neither the wind nor the size of the seas, but the *breaking* seas and the crosswells. They are what shoved us around and that's where the drogue proved helpful. A drogue is usually credited mostly with checking speed, which of course it does, but for us we were most thankful for it keeping our bum pointed in the right direction to the waves.

[Lynx]

What boats can take a roll over?

Would you go around the cape in a boat that could not withstand a roll over?

[Trim50]

Yeah, the storm we were in resulted from 3 straight days of 30 - 60 knt winds building record seas. The seas were enormous, however they had very predictable periods and they all were coming from the same direction. I've seen a lot of footage of the Southernm Seas around the Horn and it always looks like a wash machine. I'd image that would be an entirely different and far more dangerous challenge.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Lynx

What boats can take a roll over?

Would you go around the cape in a boat that could not withstand a roll over?

Well, in a sense, Ken's boat did survive a rollover. Dismasted yes, but a capsize is pretty traumatic, and losing the rig isn't all that surprising.

I should say that I have not experienced a capsize, but only a knockdown. bad enough, but orders of magnitude less severe.

[CSY Man]

I'd say that any boat or skipper planning or preparing to round the capes should at least consider a knock down, a roll, or a pitch pole.

Not really rocket science here guys:
For the last 500 years boats and ships have done the same: Sail the Southern Oceans and they have all felt the weather and the seas. Most of them logged it and the data was collected, sort of.

The Roaring 40s, the 50s and the 60s are well known and have been so for hundreds of years.
Ya don't even need the internet, a good library would do.

I have read most of the books and the articles about them passages.
(Lucky I guess, I live only a few minuttes from the SSCA library here in Ft. Lauderdale and they have thousands of books for anybody interested in learning from history or other's plights or mistakes.)

Reading does not make expert of course so I never claimed to be one. Never done any big passages as the skipper on my own boat.

Have crosse the Gulf Stream 44 times instead, which of course is peanuts compared to doing the capes in a small boat.

Not planning to do the capes or the world, but I still replaced my chain plates, my standing and running rigging and beefed up my boat in any ways I could think off , including securing the batteries and other lockers with heavy "stuff" inside. (spare anchor chain and line underneath the V-berth. Heavy spares such as starter and alternator under the setees, etc, etc)

So, uh I am not the smartest guy in the world, nor the best sailor, but if I did all that stuff just for gunking Bahamas, why the hell does guys set off around the world on a wing and prayer and hoping for rescue if predictable sh!t happens, like a roll?

Yup, folks have been there, done that:
Ya loose the mast, boom and sails plus rigging wire and any loose equipment.
Known factor, no surprises, just try to hang on and stay alive.

IF ya are not prepared to roll, ya should not be out there rounding them capes.

[henkmeuzelaar]

Originally posted by TRIM50:
Don't you sail a Hunter????

Gotto give it to yah........you can READ!!

So, why not try to read my first question more carefully and come up with a better answer?

With regard to my Hunter Legend 43 (hull #1): I've taken good care of her; ~50,000 NM (30,000 blue water), never tore a sail or had anything major break other than electronics. You won't hear me recommend this type of vessel to many other sailors, though. Most are obviously better off with a vessel that takes care of THEM....

Have fun,

Flying Dutchman
Rivendel II (Hunter Legend 43)
Port Vila, Vanuatu

[GordMay]

Lynx:
“Conventional” boats are not designed to survive a rollover, undamaged.
This type of Motor Lifeboat is self-bailing, self-righting, almost unsinkable ...
47' Motor Life Boat