KISS Boats???????????

[CF32907]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I was reading the other day and the author was going on and on and on about how important it was to have a "keep it simple sailor" boat. Later he started talking about systems etc and near as I could tell he had pretty much all of the "standard" ones and even had a watermaker. Seemed that KISS to him was not having satellite TV.

We read here on CF people writing over and over and over about having a "simple" boat. Yet they seem to have what I consider the "normal" stuff" plus other things that they have justified as "not counting".

My boat has "standard" systems of: pressure water, chartplotter, autopilot, windlass, inverter, hot water, furling headsail and these things rarely require any maintenance. It doesn't have AIS, radar, watermaker, working generator, electric winches. By far the most anti-kiss thing on my boat has been the POS diesel generator and it finally has died so now I don't need to fix it anymore.

So just what is a KISS boat? What system does it have or don't have. What systems/items are the KISS people willing to do without because they may have to fix it once in a while? You KISS boat cruisers let's hear what systems you do and don't have on your boat as I have a feeling the differences are small.

CaptVR here,
I had a 65' schooner for six years, "Altair" took 7' of water to float her. We did have some 12v lighting but the most part, cabin lighting was kero, as was our running lights and anchor light. All five sails were slide and hanks, no furling. No DC fans, we had dorads on deck as well as wind scoops. No 12v bilge pumps, I had two bronze manual pumps, one stroke lifted a gallon of water. Greatfully she shipped less than 5 gallons in three or four days, and for a Douglas Fir 50 ton boat, that was amazing. A very tight vessel. We grew herbs in the doghouse, over the main salon. We did have a propane stove, but we did have an icebox, not a refer. Most cooking was done on a grill aft of lazarette rail. WE also had one manual Perko head. Anchor windlass was also a manual single capstan for the anchor. Folks, that's as KISS as it gets.

[CF32907]

Originally Posted by CF32907

CaptVR here,
I had a 65' schooner for six years, "Altair" took 7' of water to float her. We did have some 12v lighting but the most part, cabin lighting was kero, as was our running lights and anchor light. All five sails were slide and hanks, no furling. No DC fans, we had dorads on deck as well as wind scoops. No 12v bilge pumps, I had two bronze manual pumps, one stroke lifted a gallon of water. Greatfully she shipped less than 5 gallons in three or four days, and for a Douglas Fir 50 ton boat, that was amazing. A very tight vessel. We grew herbs in the doghouse, over the main salon. We did have a propane stove, but we did have an icebox, not a refer. Most cooking was done on a grill aft of lazarette rail. WE also had one manual Perko head. Anchor windlass was also a manual single capstan for the anchor. Folks, that's as KISS as it gets.

CaptVR here again.
We did have a VHF and we did have a depth sounder. No loran or gps then. We did have a big boom box for playing tapes, Picking up hi-seas radio, and listening to the Midnight Mystery Hour out of Miami. No TV.... I did have a Sextant but dead reconning was the navigation of the day for most Caribbean travels.

[rhubstuff]

My favorite KISS boat was a 44 foot Chapelle schooner built and owned by a friend that had no winches and only one electrical device on board: a Zenith Trans Oceanic radio used only to get time ticks for sight reduction. Lights and cook stove burned kerosene, and the Lister diesel was hand-cranked. She was steel, built in Michigan in about 1968, and if anyone knows where the Charlotte Jean is today, I would surely like to hear from them. Last I heard she was in Australia or New Zealand.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I was reading the other day and the author was going on and on and on about how important it was to have a "keep it simple sailor" boat. Later he started talking about systems etc and near as I could tell he had pretty much all of the "standard" ones and even had a watermaker. Seemed that KISS to him was not having satellite TV.

We read here on CF people writing over and over and over about having a "simple" boat. Yet they seem to have what I consider the "normal" stuff" plus other things that they have justified as "not counting".

My boat has "standard" systems of: pressure water, chartplotter, autopilot, windlass, inverter, hot water, furling headsail and these things rarely require any maintenance. It doesn't have AIS, radar, watermaker, working generator, electric winches. By far the most anti-kiss thing on my boat has been the POS diesel generator and it finally has died so now I don't need to fix it anymore.

So just what is a KISS boat? What system does it have or don't have. What systems/items are the KISS people willing to do without because they may have to fix it once in a while? You KISS boat cruisers let's hear what systems you do and don't have on your boat as I have a feeling the differences are small.

I'd say an inverter is strictly a luxury item. What do you use it for, other than microwave or coffee machine or AC?

On the other side of your coin I'd call AIS a mandatory safety device nowadays. Otherwise you're describing what would be available on a well equipped boat 20 to 30 years ago as being what you now call "KISS", but which back then would have been scoffed at by KISS sailors (read: those with boats 25 years old back then).

So it's very much dependent upon the decade. I'm guessing that in 20-30 years people will expect all the things you describe as luxuries at the very least. Heck, buyers of second-hand condomarans already do...

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I'd say an inverter is strictly a luxury item. What do you use it for, other than microwave or coffee machine or AC?

My inverter runs a microwave, the watermaker and a hot water califont for showers. It also powers one other plug point for charging a myriad of devices we all have these days

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

On the other side of your coin I'd call AIS a mandatory safety device nowadays.

I’m about to install an AIS in the next week or two but only because I received it as a gift. I actually don’t see it as essential at all. In all of the passages I have done, seeing any form of vessel is an absolute rarity and with my insistence on keeping a decent watch, each of those ships were seen the moment they broke the horizon in the day or even before that at night (loom seen first).

That may have something to do with my habit of running parallel to the rhumb line but never nearer than 10nm from it.

Actually not ever seeing ships is not exactly true. I did a voyage from the Seychelles to Indonesia and en-route saw many long-line fishing boats but AIS had not been invented then and even if it had, none of them would have had it.

[RaymondR]

Tristan Jones was a great exponent of the KISS boat. He favored a two bucket system, one to wash dishes and clothes and one for excretory purposes.

The only complexity he allowed was different colours for the buckets.

[Tayana42]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

So, what's the secret? How did you manage to fit all that "stuff" onto a Tayana 42..????
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Realise you were joking, as was I. At least, I hope you were joking... lol

Well it doesn’t all fit onto a 42’ Boat. That’s why I tow a Moody 54 behind just for room my wife’s extra shoes.[emoji6]

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I'd say an inverter is strictly a luxury item. What do you use it for, other than microwave or coffee machine or AC?

On the other side of your coin I'd call AIS a mandatory safety device nowadays. Otherwise you're describing what would be available on a well equipped boat 20 to 30 years ago as being what you now call "KISS", but which back then would have been scoffed at by KISS sailors (read: those with boats 25 years old back then).

So it's very much dependent upon the decade. I'm guessing that in 20-30 years people will expect all the things you describe as luxuries at the very least. Heck, buyers of second-hand condomarans already do...

The inverter on Wings enables power tools and a coffee grinder (luxury or essential?) and keeps the computer going, which, in my case, is essential for navigation.

The AIS has grown to be an essential item; we've seen ships on every passage, many crossing our course. Yes a good watch will catch them, (but we're human, aren't we?) but when one pops over the horizon closing at 25kts the AIS triggers an alarm through the computer and stereo system which wakes the dead.

Most of my "simplicity " is in the form of simple sail handling systems, simple electrical systems, few gadgets and do-dads, especially if they are heavy or "automatic"

[sailorladd]

I would like to regard my boat as a simple, KISS boat... When I set sail from Cape Town in 1985 on my home built boat Deja vu I knew that my lifestyle was going to change. Yes I had a few modcons, like a propane run ice box, electronics on my mast that would record direction and speed of wind, depth sounder, and other luxuries I don't even recall...and as time went by, and things started to either break down or became evidently non practical (propane/battery/shore powered ice box) etc...

I started having a rethink about this sailing lifestyle, and came to the conclusion that I was among the privileged few who were able to take off on a boat and have a vague itinerary of where to go and for how long I would stay at these places...

In order for me to become the best sailor for this adventure, I needed to create a very simple, fool proof environment on my boat, where systems and luxuries and unnecessary equipment needed to be disposed of... Some would regard my attitude as radical, but sailing a little boat (31 feet) out in this sometimes dangerous element called for a radical approach.

The sea is always testing you, always looking for your achilles heel, that weak chink in yours and your boat's armour... and let's not forget Murphy, of Murphy's law fame... he is there in every situation...

After a couple of years of sailing I started seeing what was necessary and what was not on my boat.... I came to the conclusion that 'simple is survival' and approached the functions of my boat with this in mind. Instead of a fancy braking system with all those yards of sheet and blocks to prevent a jibe- I attached a stout sheet to the end of my boom and ran it up to my samson post... there is no way a boom will come about in an accidental jibe... this is just one simple example.

I never did have pressurized taps on my water system, they WILL break down, and always used a simple hand or foot pump to deliver water to the sink (saving a lot of water too!) Back out on deck again, all my headsails are hanked on. No furling system for me..the point is, I try to adopt the old tried and trusted systems that have been used for ages on boats large and small, I have a healthy disregard for all these gismos that are available to the unsuspecting sailor... I could go on.... Inflatable dinghies? outboard engines? Great while they work, but I left on my cruise with a little fiberglass dinghy that I made, with a stout pair of oars and bronze rowlocks attached to the dinghy... I used that the entire time, it never broke down

Up to the time I sailed into my final destination, where I currently reside, I never had occasion to use a satellite navigation system, it was always the sextant or parallel rulers and dividers, radio direction finder and or hand held compass to get bearings along an unknown coast...I am not knocking the modern navigation devices, they are fantastic but they also break down....

The point I am putting out there, is that if you have decided to spend some time sailing out there, the sailor needs to change as well.. embrace the simple vigorous and healthy lifestyle, slough off the city landlubber ideas, and simplify your habits to suit that wonderful world that you are venturing in to...bon voyage

[dwightsusan]

Our version of KISS:
47' x 28' x 18" high performance offshore cruising catamaran (many thousand miles Gulf of Mexico near coastal and offshore, west and east coasts of FL, northern and central Bahamas, northern Mexico)
Retractable rudders and daggers, 9.9Yamahas on tracks x 2, electrical power from 2 house batteries, fixed VHF and GPS, Handheld VHF and GPS with maps, Main/jib/screecher/spinnaker x 2, mandated navigational lights and shapes, depth sounder x 2, CQR/Bruce/Fortress with rodes, MSD portapotty x 2.
4 hardened experienced masters/crew, 2 with USCG 50 ton + auxiliary sail

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by sailorladd

Up to the time I sailed into my final destination, where I currently reside, I never had occasion to use a satellite navigation system, it was always the sextant or parallel rulers and dividers, radio direction finder and or hand held compass to get bearings along an unknown coast...I am not knocking the modern navigation devices, they are fantastic but they also break down....

I’ve often debated new vs old over a few rums with sailing friends and possibilities of modern equipment breaking down.

I started sailing with sextant etc. and remember the first “satnav” devices coming on the market. I only went onto electronic navigation with the advent of GPS and that was very early in the piece. I still have all the hand-held GPS units that I’ve owned over the years and they all still work perfectly and have guided me accurately on several ocean passages.

All my electronic instruments that I’ve owned on assorted boats, never ever stopped working including my present 25 year old radar although I have to say it gets absolutely minimal use. In truth, the only instrument that ever stopped working was a wind instrument but that was only after the masthead anemometer got slammed into the sea in a violent knock-down.

I know at least one person, though, who fell in a lumpy sea, dropped his sextant in a moment of self-preservation and broke one of the mirrors off, irreparable and unusable for the remainder of the voyage.

So old is not by definition totally dependable.

[Mike OReilly]

It’s not new vs old. It’s reliability and maintainability vs being stuck somewhere and having to rely on services outside of your control.

A KISS boat is one where the systems do not get in the way of the cruise. If there is something that forces you to wait for days or weeks for a part, or an expert, to come and fix something, then it ain’t KISS. In other words, it ain’t simple enough for you. But what is simple for someone can be impossible for another. That’s why I say KISS is a relative concept.

If it never breaks (highly reliable), or you can maintain and fix it, then the system is KISS. If you have to rely on support outside of your immediate reach to maintain or fix it, then the system ain’t KISS.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If it never breaks (highly reliable), or you can maintain and fix it, then the system is KISS. If you have to rely on support outside of your immediate reach to maintain or fix it, then the system ain’t KISS.

So that essentially excludes all electronic instruments, radios, Diesel engines, refrigerators, a myriad of things certainly on my boat that I would not want to long-term cruise without.

Example: my fridge stopped working last year in Fiji. Turned out to be an electronic controller that had to be shipped from New Zealand, a week’s wait period.

So would I prefer to be KISS and live without a fridge or would I rather sail to a lovely anchorage and snorkel/swim/sunbathe while the part travels? When it arrived the replacement took 10 minutes and we were on our way again.

In fact, let’s step one further. If a sheave at the top of the mast broke making the hoisting if the main near-impossible, does the need for outside help to make/procure/replace a new sheave make a boat non-KISS?

KISS is any state of being that I can live with without getting grumpy. Simple as that.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

So that essentially excludes all electronic instruments, radios, Diesel engines, refrigerators, a myriad of things certainly on my boat that I would not want to long-term cruise without.

Electronic instruments, including radios, chart plotters, radar, AIS… are all incredibly reliable these days. They are in the “don’t break” category. Of course sometimes they do, but they are very reliable.

Diesel engines are both reliable, and repairable by those with modest skills. Refrigerators seem to fall into the less reliable category/hard to fix category. If it is something you must have, and can’t fix yourself, then agreed, it ain’t KISS.

…

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

In fact, let’s step one further. If a sheave at the top of the mast broke making the hoisting if the main near-impossible, does the need for outside help to make/procure/replace a new sheave make a boat non-KISS?

Hmmm, don’t you have two sheaves at the top of the mast? I think most do...

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

KISS is any state of being that I can live with without getting grumpy. Simple as that.

That’s your definition. If it works for you, then great .

[Tillsbury]

Kiss is relevant where it impacts on boat safety. Critical boat systems need to be either kiss, or have sufficient redundancy (spare vhf, spare gps etc).

Many boats have two refrigerators. If mine died, I'd power it off and use the other one until the spare part arrived. Inconvenient, but no big deal.

Luxuries don't have to be kiss, and it's just not relevant anyway. If my Macbook died on passage I wouldn't be able to use it nor fix it. But choosing not to take it because it's neither fixable nor has a spare is simply pointless. Ditto the AC or coffee machine. Having luxuries on board doesn't make the kiss principle invalid at all -- but you need to keep in mind where it matters and where it doesn't.