KISS Boats???????????

[sailorboy1]

KISS is to put up your TV antenna and get the local channels FREE that are just flying around in the air and put them on your 40" color TV. Then watching the Patriots kick some Dolphin ass while eating some nachos that you heated up in your microwave. And doing this all with a cold beer in your hand that you got out of your refrigerator and while sitting around on the nice cushions in your boat's living room with the air conditioner running.

It would be non-KISS if you did the above, but have to use a satellite dish to get the game!

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Kiss is relevant where it impacts on boat safety. Critical boat systems need to be either kiss, or have sufficient redundancy (spare vhf, spare gps etc).

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Luxuries don't have to be kiss, and it's just not relevant anyway.

The principle of KISS is not fundamentally about achieving seaworthiness or safety (although it can sometimes help with this aim), but rather primarily about reducing the amount of repairs and maintenance required.

Many new boats are becoming so complex and equipment rich that large amounts of time will have to be devoted to repair and maintenance , particularly as the systems age. Thus the owner is danger of creating a vessel that on the surface appears luxurious, but in practice removes one of the most important luxuries. The luxury of time. The ability to swim, sight see, fish, or just watch the world go by and soak up the atmosphere of new location.

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Many boats have two refrigerators. If mine died, I'd power it off and use the other one until the spare part arrived. Inconvenient, but no big deal.

Having redundant and back up systems is an excellent way of increasing reliability. However, it not KISS. In many ways it is the opposite of KISS. Nevertheless it is a valuable solution for some systems. One major advantage is that while it increases the amount of time needed for repairs and maintenance, the effort can be reserved for a more suitable time and location. So rather than missing out on sight seeing in the exotic port the repair/maintence can be added to the list of winter jobs.

However, this only works if the boat can function fine without the backup in operation. A second autopilot always adds redundancy, a second fridge only adds redundancy if the boat functions fine on one fridge. Often two or three fridges/freezers are specified, but if any one of these units breaks down the vessel has to effect immediate repairs. In this case the vessel is two or three times more likely to suffer a problem than the boat with a single fridge.

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

or coffee machine.

A great solution to repair and maintenance problems created by complex boats is to have as many systems as possible simply plug-in household components. Coffee machines are very un KISS, but if a coffee machine breaks down then throw it away and buy and another one in the next port. There is no time consuming removal/installation hassles. Chances are that a suitable unit will be readily available off the shelf. So while plug-in household appliances are in many ways is very un KISS, they often contribute very little to the problems associated with complex boats. However, it not just the appliance itself but the resources (electricity and water) needed to run the system that should be considered. So a coffee machine is easy to replace, requires little maintenance and is cheap and convienient, but factor in the generator, or larger solar array, together with the inverter and the picture is not so quite rosy. Design your boat to be capable of running a coffee machine if this important to you, but don’t just specify one because it what you have at home.

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

but you need to keep in mind where it matters and where it doesn't.

Yep. Don’t just add systems because they sound like they would be nice. Every system and piece of equipment should earn it keep, because every system and piece of equipment will need repair and maintenance and take away from the simple cruising pleasures.

[Simi 60]

. Originally Posted by Tillsbury
I'd say an inverter is strictly a luxury item. What do you use it for, other than microwave or coffee machine or AC?

Ours runs:
household fridge freezer x 4
Hot water system
Lighting
Computers and 23 inch monitors x 2
40 inch and 32 inch tv
Secondary high volume bilge pumps
Welder
Assortment of power tools.
Microwave
Toaster
Sandwich press
Pressure cooker
Rice cooker
Still
Vacuum cleaner
Washing machine and dryer
Gerni

Bound to be a few things missed.
Much of the above are non mission critical
All are unplug, throw in bin and buy replacement anywhere.
Several have alternatives
Several are rarely if ever actually used
All are very nice to have when needed.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

KISS is to put up your TV antenna and get the local channels FREE that are just flying around in the air and put them on your 40" color TV. Then watching the Patriots kick some Dolphin ass while eating some nachos that you heated up in your microwave. And doing this all with a cold beer in your hand that you got out of your refrigerator and while sitting around on the nice cushions in your boat's living room with the air conditioner running.

It would be non-KISS if you did the above, but have to use a satellite dish to get the game!

Your TV antenna, a vertical dipole made out of a couple of pieces of alloy tube in a fibreglass tube from a paint roller pole which pulls in signal better than many of the store bought units.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Ours runs:
.....
Still
.....
All are very nice to have when needed.

OK, got some pictures? I don't have room for a watermaker, but a still..... perhaps I can find room somewhere...

[Mr B]

2 gallon Still from Hong Kong, Free delivery, $78-00
Thats a kiss still, Hahahaha
Very simple and small,

[Craig_B]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

Composting head (took out the marine head), 12V electrical system only (we removed the shore power), Origo stove, no pressure water, no hot water heater (took that one out too), no electric winches, no generator. We won't be changing any of those things because we don't feel they negatively impact our quality of life.

Given what we have, I wouldn't consider our boat to be a KISS boat, but I wouldn't call it complex either.

How are you liking your composting head?



We installed one earlier this summer and so far have been very happy with it.
Hoping it makes an extended stay on the boat when we finally make it down to the Bahamas much "simpler".

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Craig_B

How are you liking your composting head?

We installed one earlier this summer and so far have been very happy with it.
Hoping it makes an extended stay on the boat when we finally make it down to the Bahamas much "simpler".

I’ve had one for must be eight years now. One of the best KISS upgrades we ever did. Simple. Huge recovery of storage space. No bad odours. Indefinite stays in tiny anchorages. Safer due to no thru hulls. And almost nothing can go wrong.

(I say almost, b/c we did have a inflow of green seas one time when we forgot to close the deck vent. That was not fun )

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Ours runs:
household fridge freezer x 4
Hot water system
Lighting
Computers and 23 inch monitors x 2
40 inch and 32 inch tv
Secondary high volume bilge pumps
Welder
Assortment of power tools.
Microwave
Toaster
Sandwich press
Pressure cooker
Rice cooker
Still
Vacuum cleaner
Washing machine and dryer
Gerni

Bound to be a few things missed.
Much of the above are non mission critical
All are unplug, throw in bin and buy replacement anywhere.
Several have alternatives
Several are rarely if ever actually used
All are very nice to have when needed.

I think if I had a 60' power boat I might have a lot of those things (maybe all). But I would not think of it as a simple boat. (topic)

As it is I have a few (Vacuum cleaner 110v, as well as a 12v, and a few power tools and computer equipment which need recharging or are 110v). But on a 43 ft high performance cruising boat, which I pride myself for keeping simple, I have no interest in Several are rarely if ever actually used, All are very nice to have when needed..

It's like my friend's houses. Filled with "stuff" they never use.

We carry nothing that we don't actually need and use fairly often, except, hopefully, spares, and sentimental items (too many).

Well, we have a storm jib we've never used.

[Happ]

I think people are getting things confused with the have's and have nots of the world. My father use to tell me back in the 60"s that going to a hotel without a color TV was camping! So much of these comments are so angry towards those that have boats with AC, Generators and Watermakers. If you know how to maintain them (i'll bet most don't and don't want to learn) they make life much more comfortable. Some have the money to have them maintained during the boats downtime. Everyone here has different definitions of what causing means to them. Some are weekenders. Some cruise a few weeks a year. Some cruise more but stay in marinas almost nightly. Some even live on their boats full time and actually leave the docks or hoist their anchors. To each their needs and wants are balanced by the almighty dollar. In other words its up to each individual is whats important. You might want 3 anchors onboard. I know one person that makes bread every day when offshore.

My point is this. Anger directed at those that want a boat that gives them many of the comforts of a home but they are on the water is wrong. Just because you choose to live a more minimal existence then the other guy doesn't mean you are right nor does it mean the other guy is right.

Today I purchased an $80 converter to power a 24v unit. I wish I could have bought a generator so I could run the AC, charge my batteries, run the water maker and other things when I'm not at the dock or offshore. I would also need a bigger boat! LOL!!!

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think if I had a 60' power boat I might have a lot of those things (maybe all). But I would not think of it as a simple boat. (topic)

It was in direct response to the comment

. . Originally Posted by Tillsbury
I'd say an inverter is strictly a luxury item. What do you use it for, other than microwave or coffee machine or AC?

Note we don't have coffee maker or a/c and the microwave was onboard when we bought the boat.
If it craps out it won't be replaced.

As for being simple, really, it is.
Being unplug and replace household items is very simple.
Look at our standard off the shelf household refrigeration vs 12v custom built box with eutectic holding plates as an example.

No need to source specialty 12 volt anything.

It's like my friend's houses. Filled with "stuff" they never use.

Its nothing like your friends house filled with stuff they never use.
We were never consumers on land, always 2nd hand vehicles, hand me downs and recycled/repurposed stuff. It was great having relatives needing the latest of everything, we got their old stuff for free.
Only stuff we actually bought was stuff we actually needed and used but we just weren't about to throw what we had away as we do actually have storage.

We carry nothing that we don't actually need and use fairly often, except, hopefully, spares, and sentimental items (too many).

Well, we have a storm jib we've never used.

Same here but for us its anchors
Lots of anchors.

The household stuff we rarely if ever use is the tower PC we had on land but has our vast music and movie collection so gets fired up every six months to transfer files to a portable drive.
A sandwich press a bread maker and a rice cooker.
Hardly what I would call a boat filled with stuff we never use.

[swordds]

A tiller instead of one (or sometimes even two!) wheels and sheet-to-tiller steering.

[barnakiel]

Sheet to tiller is so overrated.


One that it only works on some boats and on some courses.


Two that on some courses (e.g. upwind) many boats sail fine without sheet, with tiller locked.


Three that on a good boat, you can have sheet to wheel as much as you could with the tiller.


I prefer tiller too, but can't see where it fits into the bigger KISS schema of things.


BTW in our tiller boat, selfsteering uses its own rudder ...



b.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I prefer tiller too, but can't see where it fits into the bigger KISS schema of things.
b.

Well, no binnacle, no steering cables, no quadrant=simpler.

I don't mind a wheel, but a big wheel which has a direct feel like a tiller would intrude on the interior space.

Anyhow, my boat came with a tiller and I'm happy with it. It amazes cruisers, "Oh, you have a tiller!"

[Junglebike]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Sheet to tiller is so overrated.
I prefer tiller too, but can't see where it fits into the bigger KISS schema of things.
b.

I can see it - one less system (wheel & bearings, steering cable/chain & associated pulleys & sprockets) versus a stick. Also you can ditch your emergency tiller, so that's a few pounds!

Edit: Wingssail beat me to it!

One other thing is the ease of fitting a backup autopilot, though if you've got a wind vane that kind of takes care of it, with the benefit (sort of) of a redundant rudder.