Life of a Diesel?

[Roniszoro]

I am considering the purchase of a sloop where the engine hour meter does not function. The seller says the engine, a Volvo, has 3800 hours, but when he got the boat the meter was not working. So he is basing the hours based on what he was told by the former owners. How does one go forward or does one just pass? It is expensive for me, at about $150K, and rebuilding a Volvo would be both very expensive and time consuming.



Thank you for your thoughts.

[sailingabe41ds]

Hi..

Time for a very good mechanic to inspect it....compression testing, use cameras to look at condition of valves, even remove the valve cover if necessary, oil analysis, so forth.

Other than that, I do not know how one can evaluate the situation.

Diesel engines that are well taken care off can last 10,000 hrs. IF you really want this boat....get two mechanics.

Best,

Abe

[chrisr]

our diesels (2 x yanmar 4JH) have abt 6,970hrs on them and still going strong

i've been told a well maintained & properly used diesel can see 20,000 hrs

but of course the converse is also true : if abused and not maintained, a diesel can be trouble after a much shorter period

how the engine has been treated is much more important than a simple reading on the hour meter. what maintenance records does the seller have ?

btw, if you buy the boat : FIX THE F'ing HOUR METER !

cheers,

[Roniszoro]

On the assumption that one will have a through review of the engine, including leak down, etc. at survey, how does one determine the $ amount of an offer as relates to the engine? The price/value of a boat would be different, I would think, based on the hours left on the engine. Thoughts?


Thank you.

[BillKny]

Three data points for you:

My old boat had a Westerbeke 4-154. It had about 10,000 on it when it was sold and was running fine.

My current boat has a Volvo TMD22 that has 9000 hours and is running strong. I retired a generator off this boat with 8900 hours, for reasons totally unrelated to the diesel engine.

A well cared for diesel is not exactly forever, but they CAN last a long, long time. Of course, some die after 3000 hours.

[sailingabe41ds]

Obviously we do not know the hours...that unknown should be pointed out as a concern and hesitation to buy the boat and therefor be able to negotiate a better price. That said, you need to ask the mechanic worse case scenarios and get an idea of the cost of the unknown factors and put that in the offer.


Abe

[jimbunyard]

Does it look like it's been taken care of? If so, chances are much better that it has been.

If it starts easily and runs and idles well, doesn't smoke or overheat under full range of use, you're very likely good.

If you've no experience with diesels, get someone who has and get them to go with you for a ride.

Even an operational hour meter is no guarantee of anything; as noted above 3800 hrs might not even be halfway.

Most Volvos are good engines, but their parts prices are very high, though many others are catching up fast. Some models seem more trouble-prone than others; a search by model might give you better information that just Volvos-in-general...

[Island Time O25]

How well the seller was maintaining the engine if he didn't care enough to fix the hour meter? The rest of the boat?

If the boat is otherwise in good enough shape to warrant $150K asking price I'd get an estimate for a full engine replacement and take that amount off the asking price to start the negotiations. If that upsets the seller so be it. If the buyers can't be expected to get upset over overvalued asking prices, the sellers shouldn't cry over low ball offers where there are glaring deficiencies with the boat. Non working hour meter is one such deficiency.

[grantmc]

Many motors don't have engine hour meters. Skipper records the hours in a log. A bit hit or miss, sure, but a guide. I'd regard the value of my own records as within plus or minus 10%.

But at what point is it too many for the OP? So 3,800 hours for a marine diesel is roughly equivalent to 300,000 kilometres at 80kph if it were a truck engine. Within our fleet of trucks we'd regard that as now being well run in.

But if the hours were 2,500 or 5,600 would that make any difference to the proposed buyer?

It's all about the use and maintenance of the motor.

• Was it mostly brought up to working temperature when being used, or just turned on and off to get out of a marina?
• Were oil and filter changes made per the manufacturers guidance?
• If so how did the owner keep track of the hours?
• What oil has been used?
• Is the engine and bay tidy and rust free?
• Any sign of water rust stains from overheating?
• Does she start easily and idle well?
• What colour and smell is the oil?
• Also check oil of gearbox.
• What state is the water in, assuming it has a heat exchanger?

If I were the seller, and had done appropriate maintenance, kept decent records and know that the engine has never been overheated then I'd be confident in the motor. I'd certainly not be wanting to deduct a rebuild cost from the asking price, particularly when the offer is from someone that's been gaining their advice from a bunch of unknown randoms on the internet.

[SV-Viento]

If the issue is simply a non functioning VDO LCD hour meter display - this is fixable. The hour data is held separately from the LCD display. So if you fix the LCD display the actual hours will be revealed. Worked great for me when in a similar place as the OP. I think this is the YT video I used to help me fix. https://youtu.be/7IpqaKi7hY4

[alitaptap]

Volvo engines have a good track record for long-term reliability although if you are planning to sail long, international voyages then getting spares when needed can be an expensive & time consuming experience, e.g. here in the Philippines it can take weeks to get spares and the high costs can escalate with import duties depending on the entity that is importing.


One question I always ask is: has the engine oil been regularly treated with molybdenum disulfide (MoS2). If yes, then the engine is probably in good condition internally, irrespective of hours.


MoS2 does not mean injectors or fuel system are in good order but it will have ensured that all bearing surfaces are fully lubricated even when left to sit for months. Fuel systems are relatively easy and cheap to repair by comparison to cranks, pistons, gears etc.



Over 30 years I have had two engines lose all oil for different reasons but the engines kept running because of the MoS2 treatment and they were fully operational after the cause of the oil leaks were discovered, repaired and the oil replenished.


MoS2 oil treatment is the best way to protect your engine when you are not using it for weeks/months at a time, and to keep it ready for when you need it.

[mvweebles]

How does unknown hours shape the value? Would vary by buyer. 3800 hours is a lot on a small diesel not because of percentage of overall lifespan (roughly 50% before some sort of major overhaul but that's a guess of course), but it means the boat is well used.

If you're looking at a $250k boat that's in modest condition with other flaws and priced at $150k, might be just fine. If you're looking at an honest $150k boat in decent shape except for this, well, tough to stomach. You will forever be suspect of the engine. Even if you install an hour meter immediately, at resale, all you'll be able to say is it had 3800 hrs when I purchased it, no idea how many before I replaced the meter. Could be a lot.

Full compression tests are not easy as they require a special adapter for each type of injector - usually an adapter is machined from an old injector. Few mechanics carry a full set.

I'd see this as a serious flaw. Not sure how to account for it. Hour meters are one of the simplest gauges on a boat - wired to the hot side of ignition switch. Hard to imagine that it wouldnt be replaced unless the PO was totally negligent. I'd guess a full rebuild would be in the $15k range. Asking for a $7500 survey allowance for future might be a lot, but feels about right to me. And I'm not greedy about survey credits.

Good luck

Peter

[malbert73]

My boat’s original Yanmar 4JHE ran poorly at 2500 hours with smoking and fuel on water. Prior owner said he never ran above 2000RPM and it was correctly propped to reach 3600. So likely glazed cylinders from being killed with kindness.
I repowered with beta (much better lower RPM engine) and sold old yanmar to mechanic.

Bottom line is, all depends. If you love the boat, you can always keep 20K in budget for repower if ends up needed

[Martkimwat]

I have heard the figure of an average of 10,000 hours 9some better some worse with a major strip down and rebuild around 5,000. I believe the slower revving diesels last longer than the faster revving ones, hence the reason Bukh are so highly rated...

[brianc]

Originally Posted by SV-Viento

If the issue is simply a non functioning VDO LCD hour meter display - this is fixable. The hour data is held separately from the LCD display. So if you fix the LCD display the actual hours will be revealed. Worked great for me when in a similar place as the OP. I think this is the YT video I used to help me fix. https://youtu.be/7IpqaKi7hY4

I did this too. It's not difficult, it probably took 15 mins to replace once I got the panel off and the tach out. It won't tell you how well the engine was taken care of, but it will tell you if there's really 5000 hours.