Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Probably have to go sea freight due to flares and CO2 bottle in the raft.

However, you could try Ocean Safety, they probably have the experience to ship overseas.

https://www.oceansafety.com/sectors/...gory/liferafts

Or possibly: https://www.marinesuperstore.com/delivery-costs

Thanks Pete. Not in a hurry so sea freight would be fine. Would likely be a valise style as a backup to my aging, deck-mounted, 6-person Givens. Turns out I saw a 4-person valise Ocean Safety the other day and was surprised how compact it was. It was setting out from Norfolk to Scotland in a rowing boat so I guess it had to be!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The dinghy is all you need. Life rafts are dinosaurs. They went away when good weather reporting became available. The dinghy will work fine in any situation you might reasonable encounter. I'm sure there are some that will tell you that you need a life jacket in a hot tub but I'm sure you're more rational than that.

I tend to agree with you, however, one of my more experienced crew members with several crossings behind him, feels uneasy not having a life raft aboard. So Pete’s idea of bringing one to the Med then selling it, has taken over as the preferred solution.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I tend to agree with you, however, one of my more experienced crew members with several crossings behind him, feels uneasy not having a life raft aboard. So Pete’s idea of bringing one to the Med then selling it, has taken over as the preferred solution.

If that crew member happened to use a life raft on one of his crossings, you may want to reconsider his suitability. It might not be a bad idea though since the boat is new or new to you and you aren't all that familiar with it.
I think you can rent life rafts also.
With an EPIRB, rescue comes reasonably quick.

[danielamartindm]

IMHO, mono or multihull, sink or flip, has a bearing on the issue of a life raft; but the possibility of fire in either is the great equalizer. Passage making means weighing small risks in earnest.

[hpeer]

In my analysis of my boat fire was definently the greatest threat. We have FIVE fire extinguishers mounted around the boat including one in a deck locker. And not the wee ones either.

All risks are relative. When I look at other boats like cats and some new Hunters they have only 3 stays. Down in the BVIs a lot of the boats stored on the hard had been dismasted. Our 44’er has 14 stays on the mast, the 33’er has 11. I view the light rigging of such boats an increased risk of needing a life raft. Likewise light glass hulls easily damaged or delicate keel structures increase the likelihood a raft would be needed. Woo be the whale we ram, poor soul.

With a spare $2,000 I might buy a better trash pump or do some other improvement. For the small boat we carry flotation work suits, a Gumby for her and a dry work suit for me. But then we need to be sufficiently thoughtful to put them on in time. The dry suit is hard to get on, I therefore somewhat doubt it’s value. But if I do put it on sufficiently early then it lets me still manage the boat while protecting me. If I get sufficiently cold, even in the boat, I’m useless.

Which begs another point or consideration, if short handed perhaps the money is better spent bringing an additional competent crew member.

I think part of the difficulty with these discussions is that there is so little available analysis or statistical data conserving losses and raft incidents. AND or boats are so different with different vulnerabilities. AND our sailing locations are so different due to weather/climate and rescue resources.

I don’t think we should try to come up with a single answer but a methodical way of assessing the need, not just of life rafts but of critical safety improvements and tools.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hpeer

In my analysis of my boat fire was definently the greatest threat. We have FIVE fire extinguishers mounted around the boat including one in a deck locker. And not the wee ones either.

All risks are relative. When I look at other boats like cats and some new Hunters they have only 3 stays. Down in the BVIs a lot of the boats stored on the hard had been dismasted. Our 44’er has 14 stays on the mast, the 33’er has 11. I view the light rigging of such boats an increased risk of needing a life raft. Likewise light glass hulls easily damaged or delicate keel structures increase the likelihood a raft would be needed. Woo be the whale we ram, poor soul.

With a spare $2,000 I might buy a better trash pump or do some other improvement. For the small boat we carry flotation work suits, a Gumby for her and a dry work suit for me. But then we need to be sufficiently thoughtful to put them on in time. The dry suit is hard to get on, I therefore somewhat doubt it’s value. But if I do put it on sufficiently early then it lets me still manage the boat while protecting me. If I get sufficiently cold, even in the boat, I’m useless.

Which begs another point or consideration, if short handed perhaps the money is better spent bringing an additional competent crew member.

I think part of the difficulty with these discussions is that there is so little available analysis or statistical data conserving losses and raft incidents. AND or boats are so different with different vulnerabilities. AND our sailing locations are so different due to weather/climate and rescue resources.

I don’t think we should try to come up with a single answer but a methodical way of assessing the need, not just of life rafts but of critical safety improvements and tools.

I think this is a good analysis.

By the way, a serious crash pump doesn't cost $2000. I think we put ours together for about 1/4 of that sum, including the folding fire hose and the special wiring for it. So I doubt that anyone actually chooses between a raft and a crash pump. Generally it's people choosing between spending some time thinking and working on safety, and not spending the effort, in my experience, as I've written.

I think pumping is a much neglected safety angle -- many boaters think that bilge pumps will do what you need for pumps to do in a flooding emergency, but they won't.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by hpeer

In my analysis of my boat fire was definently the greatest threat. We have FIVE fire extinguishers mounted around the boat including one in a deck locker. And not the wee ones either.

All risks are relative. When I look at other boats like cats and some new Hunters they have only 3 stays. Down in the BVIs a lot of the boats stored on the hard had been dismasted. Our 44’er has 14 stays on the mast, the 33’er has 11. I view the light rigging of such boats an increased risk of needing a life raft. Likewise light glass hulls easily damaged or delicate keel structures increase the likelihood a raft would be needed. Woo be the whale we ram, poor soul.

With a spare $2,000 I might buy a better trash pump or do some other improvement. For the small boat we carry flotation work suits, a Gumby for her and a dry work suit for me. But then we need to be sufficiently thoughtful to put them on in time. The dry suit is hard to get on, I therefore somewhat doubt it’s value. But if I do put it on sufficiently early then it lets me still manage the boat while protecting me. If I get sufficiently cold, even in the boat, I’m useless.

Which begs another point or consideration, if short handed perhaps the money is better spent bringing an additional competent crew member.

I think part of the difficulty with these discussions is that there is so little available analysis or statistical data conserving losses and raft incidents. AND or boats are so different with different vulnerabilities. AND our sailing locations are so different due to weather/climate and rescue resources.

I don’t think we should try to come up with a single answer but a methodical way of assessing the need, not just of life rafts but of critical safety improvements and tools.

I truly respect you, based on many things I have seen you write and what you have done with your boats. What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice with the sole intent to share a different POV.

I earlier posted the excerpts about the sinking of La Rosa for this thread. But also as a response to something you wrote earlier about your sense of security because you own a steel boat.

The La Rosa boat was very much like yours: steel, well built, well equipped, proven long distance boat, skipper had miles of offshore experience, skipper maintained and upgraded boat. If you read his blog from the beginning, you will see it was a nice, strong steel boat, in very good condition, well equipped.

His boat succumbed to the sea conditions after being rolled 360. This is not the only case I have read that had a similar outcome after a sound, "blue water" boat was rolled, even those boats sailed by highly experienced sailors.

He often singlehanded his boat, on his circumnavigation attempt (and his circ was almost complete) but was lucky to have a crew (one person) aboard at the time who literally saved his life after the capsize rollover. He was knocked unconcious and his head underwater after the rollover. So, yes, having crew aboard can save the skipper's life, as it did in this case.

He did not have a liferaft.

His inflatable dinghy on deck was destroyed by the rollover and dismasting.

His pumps were inoperative.

His hatches busted and boat filling with water.

He thought he was going to die, as the boat sank under him.

He and his crew had to enter the water, because of no raft.

He was very lucky to survive. His crew was lucky to survive.

This was off Argentina. You have written (as I recall) you would like to sail to Straights of Magellan in future. That is a voyage I would like to take.

I think any crew would appreciate it if you have well prepared your boat, AND if you also have an offshore life raft in good serviced condition on such a voyage. I would.

Again, this is written in a friendly tone of voice.

[hpeer]

Steady,

I’ve no idea where you are coming from and what you are trying to prove or refute.

I have said that Steel or aluminum boats have LESS suceptability to certain kinds of failure.

I mostly stressed one should do a comprehensive risk analysis based upon their boat, their sailing conditions.

While rafts are desirable they do not always represent the most safety bang for the buck.

For example, maybe you want to get better hatches.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Steady,

I’ve no idea where you are coming from and what you are trying to prove or refute.

I have said that Steel or aluminum boats have LESS suceptability to certain kinds of failure.

I mostly stressed one should do a comprehensive risk analysis based upon their boat, their sailing conditions.

While rafts are desirable they do not always represent the most safety bang for the buck.

For example, maybe you want to get better hatches.

Apparently you don't see the relevance of my posted comment above, with the example given by La Rosa, another steel boat about your boat's size, that was sailing in an area you proposed to sail (as I recall you proposed in another thread that you were considering sailing your boat down to SOM), and with bold highlighting on two lines to answer your question you posted about having Crew as additional safety.

I can't do more to help you see the relevance.

[daletournier]

The below link is about a steel yacht that sank near the Comores last year (this is not assult on steel yachts).

https://southcoastherald.co.za/24903...ff-mozambique/

What impresses me about our modern world is how quickly you can be rescued (obviously location dependent) if you have the means to get your call for help out there, epirbs are priceless. Combine this with a decent escape pod (liferaft) and there's a very good chance someone is coming to save you.

These guys were only in the life raft for 4 hours.

I have personally sat down several times with the owner of this boat ( who was not the skipper) . The boat was a new purchase and had a thorough survey only weeks prior to this voyage and as I said was made of steel. The crew (skipper) could not find the source of the water ingress and stop it, the boat was flooding fast. Did they fight hard enough? Who knows, what I do know is due to a life raft and epirb they are all alive.

I personally have a serviced life raft, dinghy on deck, grab bag under the dodger, two epirbs, one in the life raft, one in the grab bag, one plb and one inreach (with portable solar panel) . I regularly check all through hulls, hoses, hose clamps etc. I know that regardless of preparation and strong desire to save the boat, things can happen beyond your control, boats can go down fast. My plan is to live if the boat goes down fast, If for some reason that life raft failed (which from my research is exaggerated) I'll use the dinghy (although the time needed to get this off concerns me), I intend to send cries for help for longer than my food will last which I believe I can do.

I have alot of faith that if I can stay afloat in a life raft and send out a message for several weeks, we will live in our modern world.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The below link is about a steel yacht that sank near the Comores last year (this is not assult on steel yachts).

https://southcoastherald.co.za/24903...ff-mozambique/

What impresses me about our modern world is how quickly you can be rescued (obviously location dependent) if you have the means to get your call for help out there, epirbs are priceless. Combine this with a decent escape pod (liferaft) and there's a very good chance someone is coming to save you.

These guys were only in the life raft for 4 hours.

I have personally sat down several times with the owner of this boat ( who was not the skipper) . The boat was a new purchase and had a thorough survey only weeks prior to this voyage and as I said was made of steel. The crew (skipper) could not find the source of the water ingress and stop it, the boat was flooding fast. Did they fight hard enough? Who knows, what I do know is due to a life raft and epirb they are all alive.

I personally have a serviced life raft, dinghy on deck, grab bag under the dodger, two epirbs, one in the life raft, one in the grab bag, one plb and one inreach (with portable solar panel) . I regularly check all through hulls, hoses, hose clamps etc. I know that regardless of preparation and strong desire to save the boat, things can happen beyond your control, boats can go down fast. My plan is to live if the boat goes down fast, If for some reason that life raft failed (which from my research is exaggerated) I'll use the dinghy (although the time needed to get this off concerns me), I intend to send cries for help for longer than my food will last which I believe I can do.

I have alot of faith that if I can stay afloat in a life raft and send out a message for several weeks, we will live in our modern world.

The article mentioned that the crew was rescued by a commercial ship, perhaps through AMVER resources. So even in parts of the world were SAR resources are limited or non-existent, activating an EPIRB or otherwise getting a communication through to a rescue coordination center could initiate a rescue via a nearby commercial ship. This lends itself to having the ability to buy as much time as possible surviving off the mother ship.

Another feature of our modern world that wasn't available a generation or two ago perhaps.

[hpeer]

Steady,

You are correct, I don’t see the relevance. Yes it was a steel boat, yes Steel boats have vulnerabilities.

Do YOU see the relevance of doing a comprehensive risk assessment and allocating your resources to fix the highest risk/reward items first? I’m not arguing against rafts, but the logical application of money. Hatches should not cave in when rolled, something is amiss there. There were other issues but its been quite a while since I read that incident review and I don’t want to go back over it since neither of us where there and we are just going by that fellows report. Yes they were extremely lucky.

Not trying to be a smart ass here. I truly don’t know what you are driving at.

[daletournier]

Yep, that's exactly my point. I can assure you no rescue vessel is coming from the Comores or Madagascar etc but if you can get a message out longer enough there's enough traffic out here someone will come. Stay alive and keep sending calls for help.

Just another point, it's been mentioned that more yachts suffer fire than sinking (non fire related) , this maybe true, I don't know, BUT in the last nine years I only know (personally) of one skipper abandoning his yacht due to fire, yet I know personally of three yachts that have sunk (no fire) and several that have hit whales logs etc but haven't sunk. I realise this is non conclusive in anyway.

[hpeer]

Dale,

Yes Steel boats can sink. And while neither of us can know for 100% sure what the failure was I think we can fairly well limit it to either A) a through hull failure or B) a weak spot in the plating.

Now you say the boat was newly purchased and surveyed. I suspect here is where the failure occurred. IMHO a steel boat owner should NOT trust a survey report. I’ll expand if necessary but for now, NO! Yes have the survey but you MUST do your own personal survey, very carefully, to assure the condition of the hull and through hulls. I think ultra sound reports are miss used, they do not find the bad spots. They are found by examining the INSIDE of the hull, closely, very closely.

I read of folks not being able to reach their through hulls, or using sticks to operate them. Again, NO!

There is no good reason why a boat, especially a steel boat, should suddenly start taking on water. The failure is somewhere upstream in the maintenance and or inspection.

God forbid I should ever have to eat these words!

[hpeer]

Dale

To your final paragraph about the causes of sinkings I think you make good points. We really don’t have any kind of good historical record (I know of) to list these incidents. We get specific stories here and there and try to make sense of it. No wonder we have different opinions.