Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Dale,

Yes Steel boats can sink. And while neither of us can know for 100% sure what the failure was I think we can fairly well limit it to either A) a through hull failure or B) a weak spot in the plating.

Now you say the boat was newly purchased and surveyed. I suspect here is where the failure occurred. IMHO a steel boat owner should NOT trust a survey report. I’ll expand if necessary but for now, NO! Yes have the survey but you MUST do your own personal survey, very carefully, to assure the condition of the hull and through hulls. I think ultra sound reports are miss used, they do not find the bad spots. They are found by examining the INSIDE of the hull, closely, very closely.

I read of folks not being able to reach their through hulls, or using sticks to operate them. Again, NO!

There is no good reason why a boat, especially a steel boat, should suddenly start taking on water. The failure is somewhere upstream in the maintenance and or inspection.

God forbid I should ever have to eat these words!

I agree, but it happens. My point was more about how modern communication and if you can stay to stay afloat there's a very good chance you'll survive. Thus I feel a life raft is worth the money.

Linked is a previous thread. I knew Michael, classy guy classy boat, very well maintained BUT stuff happens. In this case he did a terrific job keeping the boat afloat and didn't take to life raft. Once again modern communications saved the day, they were quite remote yet due to technology they lived.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=128554

Ps. I haven't read through the above thread.

[daletournier]

I should add in that part of the world I saw very little ship traffic, like hardly any YET one come.

On another note I just started reading the link I posted, Cruisers forum hasn't changed much.. Lol.

[hpeer]

Dale,

That thread, that incident point to the boats design as a factor. Yes I can see the skipper did nothing wrong. As was. It’s other designs contemplate this failure mode and design in relief through water tight bulkheads. Or perhaps a full skeg, but I’m not sure if that. My rudder post is above the water line and quite stout. Still one wonders.

I once worked with a guy, about 25, who quite quickly died of a rare cancer. Stuff happens.

I ran into a guy last summer with a 40’ Aluminum sloop he bought second hand. He claimed the entire below waterline was double billed and it had fire and aft collision bulkheads. Built by Meta.

Not sure how you do all that what with prop shafts add all but it was a nice looking boat. He just came back from Elsmeer Island.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Dale,

That thread, that incident point to the boats design as a factor. Yes I can see the skipper did nothing wrong. As was. It’s other designs contemplate this failure mode and design in relief through water tight bulkheads. Or perhaps a full skeg, but I’m not sure if that. My rudder post is above the water line and quite stout. Still one wonders.

I once worked with a guy, about 25, who quite quickly died of a rare cancer. Stuff happens.

Yep, that's my point stuff happens. Being well prepared to abandon ship is good seamanship IMO regardless of the boat you are on, even well prepared and maintained boats. Malo is considered a high quality boat, I'm sure most owners have faith in their Malos. Many, many boats cruising the world don't have a rear watertight bulkhead or any water tight bulk heads at all.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A risk factor which cannot be eliminated, but can be significantly mitigated. I think:

1. Choose a quality raft, not a cheap one. Double tubes, butyl rubber, quality construction (failure mode is seams come unglued).

2. Have it serviced regularly by a competent workshop, and WITNESS the servicing yourself. A good workshop will allow you to do this.

3. Carry TWO of them. Not just for redundancy, but also a lift raft is useless in rough weather if it is not loaded correctly -- at least 50% of capacity. So an 8 man life raft with two people in it, for example, will not have any stability at all and will not keep you out of the water in rough weather. I carry TWO four-man rafts.


I really most highly recommend getting hands on with your raft and participating in the service. You will understand how it works and feel more confident that it WILL work if you have actually seen it inflated and seen everything tested. I don't actually have all that much confidence in a raft until I've seen it serviced at least once. Even new ones fail occasionally.

Best post yet.

[kmacdonald]

I prefer to be proactive and focus on prevention rather than reactive. I'm sure I'd recommend a life raft to some people but they are't for me.

[daletournier]

I think we'd all rather be proactive and I'm sure alot of us are, but you seem to miss the point, sometimes you may need to be reactive as you just control everything. Life doesn't always go to plan regardless of awesome preparation.

BTW the purchasing of a good quality life raft is proactive.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I think we'd all rather be proactive and I'm sure alot of us are, but you seem to miss the point, sometimes you may need to be reactive as you just control everything. Life doesn't always go to plan regardless of awesome preparation.

BTW the purchasing of a good quality life raft is proactive.

The use of a life raft is reactive. I agree that there are potential problems that are out of our control but the odds are small enough for me to disregard their risk. Risk management isn't the elimination of ALL risk. Intelligent choices often have to be made and that means fear mongering issues aren't a part of a reasonable solution. Probability and statistics rule. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Captain Randy]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The dinghy is all you need. Life rafts are dinosaurs. They went away when good weather reporting became available. The dinghy will work fine in any situation you might reasonable encounter. I'm sure there are some that will tell you that you need a life jacket in a hot tub but I'm sure you're more rational than that.

Warning......Wow! I sure hope that no one pays any attention to this hogwash regardless of which camp you are in.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I prefer to be proactive and focus on prevention rather than reactive. I'm sure I'd recommend a life raft to some people but they are't for me.

You can only be proactive to the extent of the weather forecast, ~5 days.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DotDun

You can only be proactive to the extent of the weather forecast, ~5 days.

It doesn't take 5 days to get across the Chesapeake Bay, even in a 21 footer.

Horses for courses -- of course not everyone needs a life raft. 20 years of sailing in warm water and rarely out of sight of land around Florida, we never felt the need for a raft.

Blue water, especially cold blue water -- that's a different use case. It's silly to project the needs of one use case on circumstances of a different one.

[kmacdonald]

Life rafts are really a bad idea. People tend to make poor choices in stressful situations and abandon ship when there was no need to. Unfortunately life rafts are often bought by inexperience sailors that resort to their use when staying with the boat would have been the wiser choice. I would suggest that the majority of cruisers would be safer without a life raft.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It doesn't take 5 days to get across the Chesapeake Bay, even in a 21 footer.

Horses for courses -- of course not everyone needs a life raft. 20 years of sailing in warm water and rarely out of sight of land around Florida, we never felt the need for a raft.

Blue water, especially cold blue water -- that's a different use case. It's silly to project the needs of one use case on circumstances of a different one.

But the thread that Ken started is regarding a north Atlantic crossing not a coastal hop.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

But the thread that Ken started is regarding a north Atlantic crossing not a coastal hop.

Indeed, and Ken has already made his decision -- the sensible one, to buy a raft.

He has crew with him and I'm guessing the crew probably weighed in on this decision . I would certainly be reluctant to crew on a West to East crossing on a boat without a raft -- the water is cold and a certain amount of tough weather is inevitable.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It doesn't take 5 days to get across the Chesapeake Bay, even in a 21 footer.

Horses for courses -- of course not everyone needs a life raft. 20 years of sailing in warm water and rarely out of sight of land around Florida, we never felt the need for a raft.

Blue water, especially cold blue water -- that's a different use case. It's silly to project the needs of one use case on circumstances of a different one.

People in a life raft in cold rough water have no problem freezing to death. Some people need the placebo effect of a life raft to go sailing and that's fine with me. If you're serious about safety and the facts then it's a different matter.