Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[Jimmyhenry]

Hi Kenomac.
You sound to be an experienced offshore sailor. Clearly money is not the issue. Nor space to stow the life raft. A 4 Man is a good size but maybe a six man as the 4 is very small. Sardines in a can??
But for my penny worth and having done 40,000 miles off shore I would go with the liferaft.
Stow it as near the cockpit or rear of the boat. Not in the garage. We stow ours in a rack on the back of the push pit. So we can deploy in seconds with the quick release.
Reasons for yes......
Sleep well at night.
Presumably your dinghy is upside down on the foredeck so nothing stowed in it.
How many men do you need to deploy. 11m will be heavy.
Can you do that in heavy weather. Safely??
Have you experienced heavy weather in a RIB??
Allow for at least on rollover every 2 to 5 minutes. How long will your crew remain conscious.??
Is the RIB set up to keep minimal provisions like water and some food. And say smoke, parachute flares. Day flares. Etc
You will have zero protection so assuming you all manage to get your survival suits on you should be warm but totally exhausted VERY quickly.
In this state your decision making will be zero or very poor I can assure you. Not a good survival attribute.
4 guys and gear in a 11ft dinghy in open ocean . I don’t think so. I certainly would not.
Plus as someone else has already said, sell the liferaft when you get home.

In NZ we Kiwis cannot leave in our boats without a liferaft (plus a million other requirements !!!) that’s our law. Doesn’t apply to overseas boats but we still have to go out and rescue them. Check out the sea areaNZ has to monitor and rescue from.

Good luck with the trip. Want any crew????����
Pete

[Leo Ticheli]

My life raft is due for repacking, but it's expensive, so I'm considering just buying a new one. I replaced my dinghy with a Portland Pudgy and I do like it, but I don't even want to think about trying to board it in a rough sea. If I lose the mother ship in calmer waters, the Pudgy would be much better than a life raft; it has the sail kit, so I could possibly self-rescue if necessary, while a life raft is just a cork. Undoubtedly, four people in it would not afford the comforts of the Queen Mary, but it is unsinkable and it's pack with survival gear, including a water maker.

I guess I'm left with having to plunk out a a few boat-bucks every three years or so. That leaves me with this tree: First, try to save the boat; if calm sea, board the Pudgy; if stormy, try to board the life raft; if really stormy, be thankful I lived a full life.

Fair winds,

Leo

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I avoid serious storms. My $20 sevylor will do fine if needed.

K, given your Catalina 22 and assumed limited cruising area this contribution is not relevant. Unless you are speaking from experience crossing the N Atlantic. If that is so, make that clear and be pertinent.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by northerncole

This has got to be the stupidest thread ever on this forum. I mean really......yes or no?? Please say you started this thread just to poke the bear. You have an Oyster that size without a life raft? And someone sold you that? This has to be a wind up or cruising has come to an all time low.

Well, yours may be the "stupidest" most inconsiderate post on what you think is the stupidest thread, but I'm very serious about the discussion. We have a dinghy that I think is more seaworthy than a life raft. We have a crew that's universal in our thinking that our dinghy or life raft will be boarded only when the mothership goes down. No other Oysters built by Matthews have ever sunk or failed to stay afloat until help arrived. We have a dinghy and plenty of safety equipment onboard including many items, most on this forum don't have such as drysuits.

The thread asks a legit question whether you like it or not or believe the legitimacy. Are Mr and Mrs. Cate who're long-time cruisers on this forum without a life raft in your mind also incompetent? I happen to think the same way they do about this subject.

Now, maybe you can try to add something constructive to the discussion, like build quality of dinghy as they compare to life rafts. Or is your intent to just "poke the bear?"

[Cadence]

I went back but couldn't find it, my eyes got bloodshot. One of the best posts was relative to bigger is not always better. A life raft not adequately loaded is dangerous.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

............

Yes, Evans, I think that starting out when all the support technology was just not available, we oldies had to take seamanship and navigation seriously. You're right, I don't think your/our decision was all that uncommon. We all were into considering the realities, not the fantasies. For you guys, even more than ourselves, for most of your sailing lives, help was never nearby--we learned the difficulty of receiving help, and I think that is all incorrectly viewed today. They think it's the thing to do, to obtain outside help, rather than the thing to do to handle *whatever* on their own. I think that wealth of knowledge that you had to attain is perceived as unnecessary these days, and that perception's basis is in a whole number of cultural and technological changes; further, the current new ones are often profoundly disinterested, possibly because it's "old fashioned!" [As elders, one tends to become invisible to many young people.]

It is one of the misleading things about vlogs about cruising, one doesn't get out the camera when the conditions are difficult and one is too busy dealing with a situation, so that the "mai tai's in the sunset" aspect of cruising, the only warm, and sunny (prettier pictures), is what entrances people, the illusion of aloneness, sells a care-free picture. Boats are not sold by emphasizing crowded anchorages, breakdowns, or expensive marinas.

Especially, for the elders who now pick up cruising, they didn't have to or get to experience problem solving at sea, and now they start out, at a time in life when their physical strengths are not at their peak, and they set themselves up for a potential rude awakening at the realities of the sea and boat ownership.

We have the catamaran explosion, as well.

Different times, and we need to accept that, and try and help the ones with the imagination to see that some old skills are worth learning about, and possibly just not say too much, unless asked.

We dinosaurs, also, perhaps really ought to take in, accept and use some of the modern technology, as well, even if we resist it a bit. Would not Capt. Cook have loved to have satellite images in advance of approaching an unknown reef? I'm pretty sure Shackleton would have accepted a lift from a whaling ship.

Ann

[StuM]

Originally Posted by icemate

My Yachtsaver package came in two carry bags with color coded lines to identify locations to be deployed. Without being installed like airbags in a vehicle it cost me around $5000. Making your vessel unsinkable is worth the money.

There's a reason that Yachtsaver went out of business

[Davidla]

As someone who has to search for vessels in distress (by air). I would much rather search for a brilliant Orange liferaft than an ocean coloured inflatable. And please make sure you carry a heliograph and know how to use it. Far and away the most visible safety gear when we are searching for you.
And make sure your EPIRB is secured to something or some one. I hate searching for an Epirb that's floated away from its owner. Very hard to spot and often the owner has long left the scene.

[MainMan]

Abandoning a boat usually becomes necessary within seconds not minutes!
A life raft provides more than a float and is built to keep you upright and out of the elements
IF you could untie the dinghy in time, IF you could include the survival kits, IF you could stay upright and afloat, IF you could manage to deploy it over the lifelines and off the deck . . . then the dinghy is still a very poor choice. IMHO
Dont be a tightarse, take proper care of your crew - THAT is the skippers' obligation.

[Flightpaul]

Hi Guys,
I worked for a Liferaft Hire company in the past in the UK.
The first thing is stay with the boat as long as it is floating... assuming you have no inflatable dinghy... when your self sinking boat is getting bad, release the liferaft, as this will float at sea level and not at ground level like your boat! An Offshore riferaft will have flares onboard and some water provisions and basic first aid pack. Better still is to take your epirb in a grab bag with you also in this emergancy. Basically, if the boat is sinking grab everything you can, mobile phones food lala.

If you boat is floating.... DON'T leave it. Its a bigger object to see from air or water.
Please note; A 4 person Liferaft is for 4 people, don't think an 8 man is better. They are designed for stability. 4 people in an 8 man raft will not be as stable as a 4 man with 4 people raft.
I dont post here much, but hope that was helpfull.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Four people in one of those, you’re joking of course. Right?

There’s no way that thing is as stable as a life raft or our dinghy.

This risk assessment I agree with.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Well, yours may be the "stupidest" most inconsiderate post on what you think is the stupidest thread, but I'm very serious about the discussion. We have a dinghy that I think is more seaworthy than a life raft. We have a crew that's universal in our thinking that our dinghy or life raft will be boarded only when the mothership goes down. No other Oysters built by Matthews have ever sunk or failed to stay afloat until help arrived. We have a dinghy and plenty of safety equipment onboard including many items, most on this forum don't have such as drysuits.

The thread asks a legit question whether you like it or not or believe the legitimacy. Are Mr and Mrs. Cate who're long-time cruisers on this forum without a life raft in your mind also incompetent? I happen to think the same way they do about this subject.

Now, maybe you can try to add something constructive to the discussion, like build quality of dinghy as they compare to life rafts. Or is your intent to just "poke the bear?"

I wondered if it was a troll rather than a serious question. I still wonder if its a question or a stated opinion.
I take it as a legit opinion held by not just the OP but many others. Who genuinely appear to believe a tender or rib is actually better than life raft.
Particularly in this case where space and cost are not the apparent objection.

I have never been on a boat which sank. Odds are I never will be. Is just not a valid reason for saying I don't need a life raft.
My boat is very small. I am not going very far from shore, I just cant afford it. Are valid reasons.

Suggesting a Rib would be better is flawed reasoning. A Rib is great at the purpose its intended for. It is not intended to be a survival craft. Could one be adapted to double as a survival craft? possibly.

I seriously considered a tinker traveler many years ago as a possible dual use tender survival craft. I don't think they are still in production. haven't seen an old used one for sale and I don't thin it was ever approved as a survival craft. But it does have some of the requirements.

A life raft is not intended to be a boat or used as a boat. Its a survival capsule. To provide the minimum basics to keep you and your crew alive. For around 72 to 84 hours until help arrives.

Your rib is not. Its stronger, Its got a motor, It may even be a hell of a lot more comfortable. But it has no shelter.

You have survival suits. your best opition for survival and being found is.
If your boats sinks or goes on fire.
Put your survival suits on.
launch and Inflate the Raft.
Get in raft. along with rest of crew. be unconformable sick and as warm as possible. wait about 24 hours then start using water rations.
It might take a few hours or a few days to find you. Even with your epirb.

You have mentioned panic. Panic is rare. Studies show most people are bewildered or freeze.
You have mentioned another person you sailed with tried to launch your raft.
One person was an idiot does not mean other people will be idiots.

You have stated you and your partner are registered nurses. why this is relevant to life rafts and Ribs I am not sure. Experience dealing with emergencies.

As a nurse providing emergency care wouldn't you rather have the best kit for the job. Someone else mentioned portable defibulators. I am not a medic.
I needed one once and didn't have one. 2 very long hours, working very hard trying to save a young man. Wish I had had one.
Or recently used one on an old person at a function. It had been in building for years. It worked. Professionals arrived quickly. Didn't work out but everything was tried.

I am glad it was there. CPR sucks.

I would urge you to change your mind.

Its way better to have a liferaft and never ever need it than to need one and wish you had one.

[Fore and Aft]

Surely Kenomac you have heard of the Oyster 825 that lost its keel and sank? It that situation I think a life raft with a Hydrostatic release would be way safer than a RIB lashed to the deck?
Experts examine Oyster Yacht that sank
I have just purchased a four man liferaft for coastal cruising here in Queensland. I will never leave sight of land but I have two young children and want to make sure I have all bases covered if a disaster happens.
Our dinghy is a good option for sure, but if I drowned any of my family for the sake of not spending $3000 I am not sure I could live with myself.
Better safe than sorry.
Cheers

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Yes, Evans, I think that starting out when all the support technology was just not available, we oldies had to take seamanship and navigation seriously. You're right, I don't think your/our decision was all that uncommon. We all were into considering the realities, not the fantasies. For you guys, even more than ourselves, for most of your sailing lives, help was never nearby--we learned the difficulty of receiving help, and I think that is all incorrectly viewed today. They think it's the thing to do, to obtain outside help, rather than the thing to do to handle *whatever* on their own. I think that wealth of knowledge that you had to attain is perceived as unnecessary these days, and that perception's basis is in a whole number of cultural and technological changes; further, the current new ones are often profoundly disinterested, possibly because it's "old fashioned!" [As elders, one tends to become invisible to many young people.]

It is one of the misleading things about vlogs about cruising, one doesn't get out the camera when the conditions are difficult and one is too busy dealing with a situation, so that the "mai tai's in the sunset" aspect of cruising, the only warm, and sunny (prettier pictures), is what entrances people, the illusion of aloneness, sells a care-free picture. Boats are not sold by emphasizing crowded anchorages, breakdowns, or expensive marinas.

Especially, for the elders who now pick up cruising, they didn't have to or get to experience problem solving at sea, and now they start out, at a time in life when their physical strengths are not at their peak, and they set themselves up for a potential rude awakening at the realities of the sea and boat ownership.

We have the catamaran explosion, as well.

Different times, and we need to accept that, and try and help the ones with the imagination to see that some old skills are worth learning about, and possibly just not say too much, unless asked.

We dinosaurs, also, perhaps really ought to take in, accept and use some of the modern technology, as well, even if we resist it a bit. Would not Capt. Cook have loved to have satellite images in advance of approaching an unknown reef? I'm pretty sure Shackleton would have accepted a lift from a whaling ship.

Ann

Hi Ann, just because we now have the luxury of outside help dosent make all modern cruisers less hands on than the old timers. Sure most of us don't know how to use a sextant and most that do, do so as a hobby more often than not. I ask you is being able to use technology like Ovitalmap (offline satalite) good seamanship? I'd say yes, I've been to places where the charts are horrifically off, therefore combined with my eyes, commonsense and satalite imagery we were able to safely navigate. My point is modern conveniences don't nessacarily result in less seamanship, they can enhance seamanship. Is the old timer that refuses to adapt to modern technology displaying poor seamanship?

I say embrace the modern era and also be self sufficient and capable from a practical angle. As someone that left school early and learnt to use his hands I take great pride in being capable (IMHO).

Humans haven't changed much over the years, I'm sure there was completely useless old timers in the day as well as the very capable, the same applies now, although I do give you, our modern world probably allows less capable humans to survive.

BTW nothing but respect for the like of you, Jim and the Evans of the world.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Davidla

As someone who has to search for vessels in distress (by air). I would much rather search for a brilliant Orange liferaft than an ocean coloured inflatable. And please make sure you carry a heliograph and know how to use it. Far and away the most visible safety gear when we are searching for you.
And make sure your EPIRB is secured to something or some one. I hate searching for an Epirb that's floated away from its owner. Very hard to spot and often the owner has long left the scene.

Awesome post. That angle hadn't been mentioned.