Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

62 foot boat and you don't have space or cash for a raft? Fit the thing on the rail like we have on our 53 footer... If you do go down in sunny calm conditions.you can always choose the dinghy. But if you're dismasted and holed in the kind of weather and waves that could dismast a 62 footer, you'll be happy you can zip into something that will contain your flailing bodies as well as your ditch bag and water and gear......

We'll be using a weather routing service to hopefully avoid "the kind of weather that could dismast a 62 footer" as outlined in post #1.

Let's try to keep the discussion focussed on the structural integrity of the dinghy vs the life raft along with the necessity of having the life raft when everything else is considered, and leave the "flailing bodies" emotional stuff out of the discussion.

Thanks

[estarzinger]

Ken

We never carried a raft on any of our boats/voyages.

We gave it quite a bit of consideration. There used to be a page on our website outlining our thinking and some of the relevant data. . . . but most of that is two decades old now and idk what if anything has changed.

We were cruising in quite cold waters, pretty far from reliable rescue services . . . which is a different environment from the med. I never considered our inflatable dinghy was going to be much use in our environment, but it might be in yours. We focused on 'saving the ship', with watertight bulkheads and such.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Ken

We never carried a raft on any of our boats/voyages.

We gave it quite a bit of consideration. There used to be a page on our website outlining our thinking and some of the relevant data. . . . but most of that is two decades old now and idk what if anything has changed.

We were cruising in quite cold waters, pretty far from reliable rescue services . . . which is a different environment from the med. I never considered our inflatable dinghy was going to be much use in our environment, but it might be in yours. We focused on 'saving the ship', with watertight bulkheads and such.

My thoughts as well.

Four years ago we had a very small electrical fire onboard caused by a failed engine starter motor. The crew member onboard (not my wife) immediately wanted to abandon ship. I told him to knock it off, then I went down below, discovered the source of the smoke, cut off the electric, engine etc, then solved the problem and sailed back into port.

The guy was ready to launch the life raft if I hadn't stopped him... we were only a 1/2 mile outside the harbor entrance.

[Sojourner]

Of course. My post contained all of these: if you place 100 percent trust of your boat, life and family's life in your weather routing service, then that's one thing. But the flailing bodies is to say if the weather service gets it wrong, you could be in an open dinghy in 60knot winds and 10 meter seas. Don't know about you, but I stay in to eat at anchor when I gotta dinghy half mile into 15 knots... Imagine 4 or 5 scared people, with a mound of ditch gear no sun protection bailing the water.... Again, you trust a stranger in an office somewhere with this scenario?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Of course. My post contained all of these: if you place 100 percent trust of your boat, life and family's life in your weather routing service, then that's one thing. But the flailing bodies is to say if the weather service gets it wrong, you could be in an open dinghy in 60knot winds and 10 meter seas. Don't know about you, but I stay in to eat at anchor when I gotta dinghy half mile into 15 knots... Imagine 4 or 5 scared people, with a mound of ditch gear no sun protection bailing the water.... Again, you trust a stranger in an office somewhere with this scenario?

Please re-read post #1. We have literally 500 pounds of safety gear onboard including communications, sat phone... everything but an auto inflating canister type life raft. I'd venture to guess that there're plenty of boats under 62ft out there cruising around without a canister type life raft onboard.

And yes... we do place a lot of trust in our boat and the Oyster build quality, but it sounds to me like you need a more rugged dinghy. We have a twelve foot aluminum bottom with a 15hp Mercury... which does fine in 15 knots.

Here we are on our 53:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLIEIjsd18

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The pumped up dinghy would be pre-inflated and ready to deploy by simply cutting a line, whereas with the life raft I’d be dependent of the device to self-inflate. I’ve sat in tenders many times close to shore in wavy condtions while waiting to go diving. It’s no different than I’d expect from a life raft.

Anyone care to add to the discussion regarding the build quality difference dinghy vs the life raft? As I remember, even cruise ships rely on their hard everyday tenders as primary safety rescue devices and the inflatable canisters as secondaries.

Don't think you can compare a cruise ship tender/lifeboat to a RIB. The former are designed and built for both functions. I think if you could pick your spots for using the RIB as a lifeboat you would be fine - in a fairly busy part of the ocean and in reasonable weather, perhaps after a fire. But we have been out in nasty conditions where a RIB would remain right side up for a matter of minutes. When we crossed the Indian Ocean to Mauritius for example we had 2+ weeks where the wind never was less than 25 knots and often was 35. The wave conditions were totally unsuitable for a drifting RIB.

My feeling is that a captain provides a life raft for the crew even if he/she does not feel the need to have one for themselves.

[Kenomac]

25 knots to 35 knots is great sailing weather on a 53-62ft sailboat. We're just getting started at 15 knots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAKLm8vaR2k

[Sojourner]

YOU'RE THE ONE WITH THAT BONIFACIO VIDEO! Nice sailing, I anchored in the strait under similar conditions bringing our super maramu home to Italy last February..... I guess what I don't get is not to be abrasive but if you had a 10meter little plastic fantastic, sure make a call. But with obvious space and cash to spare, it would seem silly not to bust one on your aft quarter rail and forget about it. I'm sure your dinghy is better than mine (tho I'd put the sea worthiness of my Amel up against an oyster any day, even if it cost half) but go out in it next stormy anchorage for twenty minutes... I'm sure you have....but maybe not in 40 knots lifting the bow? No dinghy is a class A ocean boat after all. But let's say your weather routing is infallible... Hit a container halfway to Bermuda in nice summer weather. You'll roast before the first tanker finds you. I'm not saying you couldn't do it, but again, even me with my measly Amel 53 gas the space and cash for a last ditch tool in my survival kit. I'm sure you appreciate the ocean ain't the place to stand on principle...

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

YOU'RE THE ONE WITH THAT BONIFACIO VIDEO! Nice sailing, I anchored in the strait under similar conditions bringing our super maramu home to Italy last February..... I guess what I don't get is not to be abrasive but if you had a 10meter little plastic fantastic, sure make a call. But with obvious space and cash to spare, it would seem silly not to bust one on your aft quarter rail and forget about it. I'm sure your dinghy is better than mine (tho I'd put the sea worthiness of my Amel up against an oyster any day, even if it cost half) but go out in it next stormy anchorage for twenty minutes... I'm sure you have....but maybe not in 40 knots lifting the bow? No dinghy is a class A ocean boat after all. But let's say your weather routing is infallible... Hit a container halfway to Bermuda in nice summer weather. You'll roast before the first tanker finds you. I'm not saying you couldn't do it, but again, even me with my measly Amel 53 gas the space and cash for a last ditch tool in my survival kit. I'm sure you appreciate the ocean ain't the place to stand on principle...

Thanks for the compliment, we hope to meet you sometime, somewhere in a hopefully, not so jolly anchorage. Come to Croatia.

We haven't ruled out getting a life raft, 'just wanna discuss the need for having one when a dinghy and all the safety gear is already in place.

Fair winds

Ken

[powsmias]

Portlandpudgy.com

[Ndavies]

Most of our sailing is coastal or relatively short passages. However, we always carry a liferaft when going offshore. I've heard arguments that you don't need a raft if you are within 200 miles of land as you are within range of a heli-rescue etc. Yes, there's always an argument. In the case of a transatlantic crossing, my opinion is its a no-brainer - you should have one. But that's just my opinion. We will be doing a transatlantic crossing later this year and we will have the raft with us.

We have also done the Safety at Sea course and understand what a miserable place and last resort a raft could be if you need to use it. But to me, the compelling rationale is that in an emergency situation you need to have options and redundancy, and the more options you have, the better prepared you will be to make the best decision for that particular situation. So, in my mind, space, nuisance, and cost become secondary to safety options.

Neil

[Uncle G]

We have a liferaft that is now 19 years old. It was only 'used' as a safety aid for its first few years and has been in storage for the rest of that time. It has never been deployed or serviced.

I inflated it myself in the garage the other day (using a vacuum cleaner to blow air in). The raft itself was like new. The torch was shot - with corroded batteries - and the flares were obviously well out of date.

However, I discovered that there was a rubber seal missing from one of the tube bungs. So there was no way to retain the air in one of the tubes for very long. Also, there were no bellows or method of re-inflating the raft after the CO2 supplied had been used.

Had we needed to use it in earnest, it would have been useless. This was as supplied from new.

Quite an eye opener.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We always have an inflated dinghy onboard which is easily deployed just by cutting a line, or in the Med our Highfield which is always hanging off the davits.

The life raft just seems redundant and poorly constrcted when compared to a RIB dinghy. It’s not like we’re going to have nothing... we’ll have the multi-purpose dinghy along with the survival suits and drysuits.

The fire happens while the mast comes down in force 9 seas, crushing the RIB. Enjoy your treading water!


I've taken a RIB out in force 6. I wouldn't recommend it for survival conditions. Also, a liferaft is enclosed, whereas a RIB is exposed. Even in the sub-tropics, it's possible to die of exposure. The life raft is survival gear. The RIB is a fair-weather tender.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Ken, is this ocean crossing a one off? why not buy a US raft and sell it on arrival to those kitting up for the ARC in November. This is their forum:

https://www.worldcruising.com/forum/...aspx?ForumID=2

That's a clever idea.

[Cadence]

That dinghy in a seaway isn't going to be worth a damn up side down no matter how fast it can go. JMHO