Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[JOHNMARDALL]

A question I've often pondered. If you decide to go with the RIB only, be sure to have a cover that will comfortably protect you from the sun. Down here in South Florida, you'd be a very crispy critter after a day in an open boat.


Good luck on that lovely Oyster

John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Boat Equipment.

[estarzinger]

Some years ago I gave a presentation at the NYYC on "safety", essentially. I said I thought the sport had over focused on safety gear (a lot of which sat around and very infrequently used/tested), and under focused on the essence(s) of seamanship - various types of knowledge & skills (from as simple as how to properly walk up a pitching deck to rather more complex like weather), preventative actions (design, planning, maintenance), the ability to handle stressful/emergency situations promptly but calmly, and the age old 'crew leadership'.

I obviously got into more details in an hour presentation . . . but strongly believe safety is much more about thinking than it is about gear.

That said, I will add, over our time voyaging, there were four pieces of 'better than sliced bread' gear developed
- gps: a 'given' today but was a revelation when it was introduced - we suddenly actually knew where we were (with no effort). This also coincided with a general increase in accuracy in 'remote area' charts. However, it has introduced a whole new set of 'seamanship' skills to allow/force safe 'e-navigation', which have not been super widely taken on board (witness the various e-navigation' grounding threads). A decent size safety community opportunity.

- iridium: primarily to allow you to contact people who can help you solve problems yourself to avoid 'emergencies', but also the incident data says it is super useful for 2 way comms in an emergency

- epirbs: also pretty much a given today, but generally the single best way to distress signal (except right inshore).

- gribs: Once gps allowed us to stop spending so much time at sea trying to figure out where we were, that time/effort basically shifted to trying to figure out how to best play the weather, and gribs with weather routing software is just an absolutely terrific tool to deal with that important issue. However, like with e-navigation, this tool introduced a whole new set of seamanship skills which are also not super widely taken on board. Also a decent size safety community opportunity.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

I've taken a RIB out in force 6. I wouldn't recommend it for survival conditions. Also, a liferaft is enclosed, whereas a RIB is exposed. Even in the sub-tropics, it's possible to die of exposure. The life raft is survival gear. The RIB is a fair-weather tender.

Keep in mind that in anything but benign conditions the liferaft will be full of water from wave action and/or capsize. If you are not prepared, you can die of exposure in a liferaft as easily as in a dinghy. A survival suit, wet suit or dry suit will be necessary in either case.

To carry a liferaft or to depend on the dinghy is a very personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer. Personally, I would feel more secure in a dinghy with a parachute anchor.

Ken's story above highlights what I consider to be one of the greatest drawbacks to carrying a liferaft. I think that some folks, particularly those new to sailing, view a liferaft as a kind of 'get out of jail free card', something that will save your bacon when things go sideways. In reality, they represent a last ditch act of desperation that may or may not work when needed.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ft-174801.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-no-69940.html

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Keep in mind that in anything but benign conditions the liferaft will be full of water from wave action and/or capsize. If you are not prepared, you can die of exposure in a liferaft as easily as in a dinghy. A survival suit, wet suit or dry suit will be necessary in either case.

To carry a liferaft or to depend on the dinghy is a very personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer. Personally, I would feel more secure in a dinghy with a parachute anchor.

Ken's story above highlights what I consider to be one of the greatest drawbacks to carrying a liferaft. I think that some folks, particularly those new to sailing, view a liferaft as a kind of 'get out of jail free card', something that will save your bacon when things go sideways. In reality, they represent a last ditch act of desperation that may or may not work when needed.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ft-174801.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-no-69940.html

That first paragraph is nonsense other than the survival suit.. JMHO I hadn't seen a ballasted dinghy or one with a canopy.

[JPA Cate]

We have a pretty large, stable dinghy (3.5 m. RIB). When it is not under power, it turns beam to the wind, and a steep chop might well get too "tippy", and tip us out. We've been tipped out that way, from a 13 ft. one, in a breaking wave, one time.

People have also been rolled out of liferafts they were using, so many times, they became exhausted and could not re-enter them.... and then drowned.

The better modern liferafts have ballast bags to try to keep them from overturning; dinghies have nothing to keep you inside them if they tip.

Do not assume that sitting in the waves 1/2 mi. offshore on a warm day is the same as being in 50 kn. and 22 ft. seas, mid-Atlantic, at night.

I really think Evans has the right of this, though. In the more likely scenarios, putting your experience and knowledge to bear on the larger, safer sailing platform makes sense to me.

We've had rigging failures at sea, and one dismasting. Leaving the big boat, well it seems to me like Kenomac's crew member--often an uninformed panic reaction. But then, there are the cautionary tales, where life rafts have saved lives.

What I like about Pete 7's solution, above, was that it allows everyone's concerns to be addressed. Kenomac might also be able to rent a liferaft, and ship it back to the US by a commercial vessel after arrival in the Med. Especially if there is family pressure to have a liferaft, that might make a solution in this instance.

Ann

[Franziska]

@UncleG

Was the raft ever tested and repacked in those 19years. Never heard of so long inspection intervals.
Little surprise that after 19years without inspection might fail.

Apart from that, I agree that the raft is the very last resort.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Uncle G

We have a liferaft that is now 19 years old. It was only 'used' as a safety aid for its first few years and has been in storage for the rest of that time. It has never been deployed or serviced.

I inflated it myself in the garage the other day (using a vacuum cleaner to blow air in). The raft itself was like new. The torch was shot - with corroded batteries - and the flares were obviously well out of date.

However, I discovered that there was a rubber seal missing from one of the tube bungs. So there was no way to retain the air in one of the tubes for very long. Also, there were no bellows or method of re-inflating the raft after the CO2 supplied had been used.

Had we needed to use it in earnest, it would have been useless. This was as supplied from new.

Quite an eye opener.

Hence the need for periodic inspections and re-certification - all consumables are replaced at that time and the raft is pressure tested.

[deluxe68]

We have a Switlik OPR heavy duty raft with the water ballast and raised floor to help keep dry.

[icemate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

On our Oyster 53 which is presently for sale in Italy.... please check it out 2001 Oyster 53 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com we’ve always had an eight person Avon life raft which has never been used, and I now question the need to have one.

Three weeks from now, four of us will embark on a trans Atlantic sail across to Gibraltar with a stopover in the Azores on our new Oyster 62 which does not presently have a life raft, so I’d like to discuss if there is in fact an actual need to have one.

Here’s what we do have:

1. EPIRB
2. Sat phone
3. Survival suits and/or dry suit
4. Personal EPIRB
5. Brand new 11ft aluminum bottom PVC dinghy
6. Tethers and inflatable life vests
7. Multiple handheld waterproof VHF
8. Fully equipped ditch bag

The plan is to keep the dinghy inflated on the foredeck tied down or on the afterdeck tied down if the conditions were to become concerning. We also plan to use a professional weather routing service out of Boston to keep us in the good weather. The boat can easily crank out 200+ miles per day which should also help keep us in the good weather.

Is a life raft really a necessity? My thoughts are no it’s not... with my rational being that I’d always prefer to remain on the mothership until the need to climb UP onto the dinghy should occure, and that the dinghy is actually constructed well enough to have a 15hp motor attached and driven to speeds exceeding 20mph. So I’d much rather board a dinghy instead of the life raft anyway. Another issue... the dinghy is already inflated, whereas I’d need to count on an automatic inflation device working with the life raft.

I’d like to hear some forum feedback while I’m still trying to decide on whether or not to purchase another life raft that’ll most likely just get in the way over the next 15 years.

I sailed from Buffalo,NY to Australia and did not want a life raft as I feel staying with the bigger craft is safer. I purchased a Yacht Saver Package consisting of two bags ( about the size of two hockey gear bags) with color coded inflatable bags made to order to fit all compartments in the boat and when danger deployed the but did not inflate them unless water would have been up to my knees. Gave me a better feeling of safety and staying alive as I would be with all my food and water and it is easier to see a 13 meter sailboat than a 2 meter life raft even if I could deploy it and then get in it and survive. Check out Yacht Saver and wish safe sailing. The Iceman

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

My thoughts as well.

Four years ago we had a very small electrical fire onboard caused by a failed engine starter motor. The crew member onboard (not my wife) immediately wanted to abandon ship. I told him to knock it off, then I went down below, discovered the source of the smoke, cut off the electric, engine etc, then solved the problem and sailed back into port.

The guy was ready to launch the life raft if I hadn't stopped him... we were only a 1/2 mile outside the harbor entrance.

There seems to be two kinds of people each hardwired differently. One type runs away from adversity basically fleeing a perceived to be dangerous situation. The other type is hardwired to confront the situation and attempt to solve or remedy the problem. Neither type person can change, they can’t help the way they’re wired.

My wife and I are the stay and solve type, which is why I can’t see us ever climbing down into a life raft.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

There seems to be two kinds of people each hardwired differently. One type runs away from adversity basically fleeing a perceived to be dangerous situation. The other type is hardwired to confront the situation and attempt to solve or remedy the problem. Neither type person can change, they can’t help the way they’re wired.



My wife and I are the stay and solve type, which is why I can’t see us ever climbing down into a life raft.

I think you mean climbing UP into a life raft. Climbing down is just silly.

[meirriba]

If you decide to go without a L/R you may consider some thought to prepare the dinghy to serve as one. E.g - some sun protection, keeping survival equipment well secured inside the dinghy (as is standard in the L/R) etc.
Do not be sure that during disaster you will have much time to transfer food/water/equipment to the dinghy. So, my advice is to prepare the dinghy as much as possible to have all beneficial attributes that a L/R has as a standard.
Yacht may go down after a prolonged process but it may also hit a sunken container, get holed and sink fast (I had the pleasure of aborting into a liferaft from a boat that sunk within ~10 minutes in the Red sea).
On the other hand: without prying too much into your financials, Oyster 62 is not cheap and the cost of a L/R is insignificant compared with.
So, why not have both (and in real disaster, use both)?
After crossing, you may sell the L/R for half price and sail on.

[Uncle G]

Originally Posted by Franziska

@UncleG

Was the raft ever tested and repacked in those 19years. Never heard of so long inspection intervals.
Little surprise that after 19years without inspection might fail.

Apart from that, I agree that the raft is the very last resort.

The raft was only on board for the first few years of its life. The rest of the time it was in storage. I suppose we did 'rely' on it for a year or so after its first inspection was due.


The point I was making was that even the first day after we got it (brand new) it would have failed had we needed to use it because the manufacturers had not installed a rubber seal - and had not packed any re-inflation gear in the valise.


How could I have possibly known that? I was blissfully unaware and thought (like so many here) that 'my liferaft would save my life'. This particular one wouldn't. It was a complete waste of money. It would have been much better to do as Kenomac is thinking and have much kit aboard that one knows works.

[Uncle G]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Hence the need for periodic inspections and re-certification - all consumables are replaced at that time and the raft is pressure tested.

Since the missing rubber seal and bellows were missing from when it was supplied, brand new, from the manufacturer - for the first three years or until it was inspected it would have been useless. And even then, if the manufacturer can miss such important parts how do any of you know that the inspection people haven't messed up in some way?

Much better to have kit on board that is multi-use and is in use and visible whenever you want. IMO.

Actually, after 19 years of not having been opened up, I found that the inner plastic bag was still sealed and the raft itself was like new (apart from the consumables). Once I replaced the missing seal it held its pressure for a week.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The pumped up dinghy would be pre-inflated and ready to deploy by simply cutting a line, whereas with the life raft I’d be dependent of the device to self-inflate. I’ve sat in tenders many times close to shore in wavy condtions while waiting to go diving. It’s no different than I’d expect from a life raft.

Anyone care to add to the discussion regarding the build quality difference dinghy vs the life raft? As I remember, even cruise ships rely on their hard everyday tenders as primary safety rescue devices and the inflatable canisters as secondaries.

I humbly beg to disagree...
I do not believe that you have waited in a dinghy in high winds (let's say 40kn) and waves over 3m.
If you did, I apologize.
Liferaft has built in stabilisers.
Anyway, I have already suggested to you to have both. In emergency you can tie them together and in good weather try to come closer to wherever you believe is bneficial.