Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[44'cruisingcat]

Ken, I doubt you're going to see a consensus of opinion on this.

Do what you and your crew are comfortable with.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

On our Oyster 53 which is presently for sale in Italy.... please check it out 2001 Oyster 53 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com we’ve always had an eight person Avon life raft which has never been used, and I now question the need to have one.

Three weeks from now, four of us will embark on a trans Atlantic sail across to Gibraltar with a stopover in the Azores on our new Oyster 62 which does not presently have a life raft, so I’d like to discuss if there is in fact an actual need to have one.

Here’s what we do have:

1. EPIRB
2. Sat phone
3. Survival suits and/or dry suit
4. Personal EPIRB
5. Brand new 11ft aluminum bottom PVC dinghy
6. Tethers and inflatable life vests
7. Multiple handheld waterproof VHF
8. Fully equipped ditch bag

The plan is to keep the dinghy inflated on the foredeck tied down or on the afterdeck tied down if the conditions were to become concerning. We also plan to use a professional weather routing service out of Boston to keep us in the good weather. The boat can easily crank out 200+ miles per day which should also help keep us in the good weather.

Is a life raft really a necessity? My thoughts are no it’s not... with my rational being that I’d always prefer to remain on the mothership until the need to climb UP onto the dinghy should occure, and that the dinghy is actually constructed well enough to have a 15hp motor attached and driven to speeds exceeding 20mph. So I’d much rather board a dinghy instead of the life raft anyway. Another issue... the dinghy is already inflated, whereas I’d need to count on an automatic inflation device working with the life raft.

I’d like to hear some forum feedback while I’m still trying to decide on whether or not to purchase another life raft that’ll most likely just get in the way over the next 15 years.

A dinghy will not be of any use in rough weather. It will flip over again and again.

The liferaft is to keep you out of the water. If God forbid something happens and you lose the mother ship, in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere, it may be a day, or in some cases, days, before help can get to you, assuming your distress signalling (EPIRB etc.) works perfectly. You might survive that in a dinghy in calm weather, but you would simply not survive in weather too rough to keep the dinghy on her feet.

So you can draw your own conclusions.

The importance of staying out of the water varies according to the temperature of the water. In the tropics you might imagine taking a risk on the dinghy and clinging to it inverted if there's bad weather, and hanging on for some time (but probably not days). But up where I sail, that's just not an option. Therefore I not only have a life raft, I have TWO of them, and wouldn't go out without one. In cold water, I wouldn't even sail along a coast without a life raft. YMMV.

[tim_burley]

General consensus is that its best to stay on mother vessel as long as possible, so rather than have an inflating liferaft why not design airbags that would keep the vessel afloat. Liferafts and lifeboats were designed for vessels at sea, you have large cargo carrying capacity which if damaged (Titanic good example) have a tendency to sink. So why not rethink what is needed for a yacht, air bags are small, but can provide a lot of additional buoyancy. Think out of the box and you can do away with the inflatable raft.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I think you mean climbing UP into a life raft. Climbing down is just silly.

By writing “climbing down” I’m referring to those people who jump into the life rafe prematurely when their mothership is still the safest option.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Keep in mind that in anything but benign conditions the liferaft will be full of water from wave action and/or capsize. If you are not prepared, you can die of exposure in a liferaft as easily as in a dinghy. A survival suit, wet suit or dry suit will be necessary in either case.

To carry a liferaft or to depend on the dinghy is a very personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer. Personally, I would feel more secure in a dinghy with a parachute anchor.

Ken's story above highlights what I consider to be one of the greatest drawbacks to carrying a liferaft. I think that some folks, particularly those new to sailing, view a liferaft as a kind of 'get out of jail free card', something that will save your bacon when things go sideways. In reality, they represent a last ditch act of desperation that may or may not work when needed.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ft-174801.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-no-69940.html

I did spend time in a liferaft, around 3m waves (very steep) about 30kn wind - liferaft was dry...
Are you writing from experience or theory?
Then, all liferafts have water sacks underneath for stability. Not easy to capsize, altbough may happen given extreme conditions (dinghy will capsize earlier).
Every liferaft has drogue as part of standard equipment. You can exchange it for larger size if you think it is too small.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

By writing “climbing down” I’m referring to those people who jump into the life rafe prematurely when their mothership is still the safest option.

I did jump down, however our boat was sinking at the time with bow deep underwater and amidships area awash...

[mikedefieslife]

One thing to consider is that not all dinghies are equal. I doubt someone with a 60ft Oyster has a little 2.3m Honwave.

The average decent dinghy is usually designated CE category C for inshore use and covers wind up to and including force 6 and waves of 2m. Category B is offshore, force 8 and 4m waves, whilst A is rated at over force 8 and waves above 4m.

I don't think the OP has mentioned the CE category of his dinghy nor with size.

I've met people that rely on a sailable dinghy as their life raft. That at least gives them a for of propulsion to run with the wind or to find land.

In any case you'd probably want a good quality tarp and some way to lash it down. That would give you shelter from the elements. A method to attach water pockets for stability would also be handy. After all this is what lighter life rafts use in an attempt to prevent rolling.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by meirriba

I did spend time in a liferaft, around 3m waves (very steep) about 30kn wind - liferaft was dry...
Are you writing from experience or theory?
Then, all liferafts have water sacks underneath for stability. Not easy to capsize, altbough may happen given extreme conditions (dinghy will capsize earlier).
Every liferaft has drogue as part of standard equipment. You can exchange it for larger size if you think it is too small.

No experience here, just going on the (perhaps false) assumption that if I have abandoned ship it is because the seas are such that my boat has broken apart and is no longer habitable. 30 knot winds and 3 meter seas are still relatively benign conditions in which I would expect a good liferaft or large dinghy to stay fairly dry. I suspect that in your case a good dinghy would have served as well.

I am not saying that a liferaft is not a good idea or that they do not save lives. I am just trying to point out that they are not the panacea that some seem to think. When you leave the mothership, whether you get into a dinghy or liferaft, you are still at risk of hypothermia, drowning or both. Even though purpose built, liferafts can and do flood and capsize. They are also a bit of an unknown entity. Incidents in which the raft failed to inflate, failed after inflation or blew away before the crew were able to board have all been documented.

My point is that a liferaft is not always necessary, or even preferable. If the crew is small, if you have wetsuits, drysuits or survival suits, if your dingy is well made and cannot sink, if you have some provision for shade, then I believe a dinghy is an acceptable substitute for a liferaft. If you sail with a large crew, if your dinghy is rolled up and secured on passage then I think a liferaft is preferable. If you have both a good dinghy and a liferaft, all the better.

Consider that Steven Callahan, after spending 76 days in a liferaft, developed a dinghy that he considered a better solution. Sadly, it was not a commercial success.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...res-26185.html

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

No experience here, just going on the (perhaps false) assumption that if I have abandoned ship it is because the seas are such that my boat has broken apart and is no longer habitable. 30 knot winds and 3 meter seas are still relatively benign conditions in which I would expect a good liferaft or large dinghy to stay fairly dry. I suspect that in your case a good dinghy would have served as well.....

It is my experience that in "benign" conditions of 30kn/3m no yacht dinghy will remain dry, even a large dinghy.
Another question that nobody seems to have addressed is, how much fuel will you have in the dinghy? How far can you motor?
Of course, you may fit the dinghy with a mast and sail.

[daletournier]

Personally other than cost I don't see the downside of having a life raft onboard.
Sure I didn't want to pay the $1800 to get mine serviced and a epirb added, BUT if it all went pear shape in a big way and the boats going down on a dark and stormy night I want as many things in my favor as possible, I see a life raft as one more thing that stacks the odds in my favor.

[Cadence]

Correct me it I'm wrong. In the US you are as good as gold without a life raft however if you have one beyond inspection the date aboard it is a violation. Go figure.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I want as many things in my favor as possible

Q?

do you carry a crash pump?

if not, why not? It would be a piece of gear that stacked things in your favor (both for dewatering and fire fighting).

do you carry a defibrillator?

if not, why not?

Do you carry a 100kg storm anchor?
Do you carry both a para-anchor and a drogue (and 600' rodes for them)?
Have you taken advanced emt training, & advanced weather training & and advanced crisis response training?

and so on . . . .

The decision criteria of 'as many things in my favor as possible' leads to an endless loop. The (a reasonable) decision criteria HAS to be more complicate/sophisticated than that.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

There seems to be two kinds of people each hardwired differently. One type runs away from adversity basically fleeing a perceived to be dangerous situation. The other type is hardwired to confront the situation and attempt to solve or remedy the problem. Neither type person can change, they can’t help the way they’re wired.

My wife and I are the stay and solve type, which is why I can’t see us ever climbing down into a life raft.

Sure, but that is still not an answer to your original question.

No matter how heroic and inventive and otherwise well prepared you are, there are things which COULD happen which you could not overcome. These qualities are great, but they do not equal "I can never sink, nor will I ever have a fire I can't put out."

The risk is pretty small, so as others have said, it also boils down to your tolerance of risk. Few sailors ever need a life raft, but the risk of needing one is not trivial, especially not in an ordinary plastic production boat like yours or mine, with a couple dozen through hulls and not more than one or two watertight bulkheads -- as opposed to Estarzinger's custom built metal expedition boat. I do know personally people whose lives have been saved by having a liferaft in a situation which even Superman could not have overcome.

I am probably concerned more about fire, than flooding, personally. A bad fire is impossible to put out with little powder extinguishers which we have. It doesn't happen often, but it happens.

For flooding, a cheaper and more pro-active solution is a proper dewatering pump. Do you have one of these? Mine is a massive 2.2kW one with trash impeller disharging through a 3" fire hose. I do not intend to abandon my boat because of a shaft seal or through hull or even several failed ones at once.

But what if you hit a container or something large and floating and breach the hull beyond the capacity of any dewatering pump? There is a certain risk of that, not large, but not trivial, just like there is a certain risk of a really bad fire. In either of these cases, if the weather is too strong for the dinghy, you are dead without a raft.

"Too strong for the dinghy" depends on the dink, of course, but note also that preventing capsize even in a F8 in ocean conditions requires the motor -- how much fuel do you have? Once the motor is off, you are road kill in any kind of strong conditions, even in a very large RIB tender with large tubes.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by meirriba

It is my experience that in "benign" conditions of 30kn/3m no yacht dinghy will remain dry, even a large dinghy.
Another question that nobody seems to have addressed is, how much fuel will you have in the dinghy? How far can you motor?
Of course, you may fit the dinghy with a mast and sail.

I used to use my previous dinghy, a 12 foot Avon RIB with wheel steering and 25 horsepower, to make short trips along the coast and to go back and forth across the Solent from Cowes. So I have a fair amount of experience with it in non-sheltered or semi-sheltered waters.

In my experience, F6 was challenging, and at F7 there was already a very serious risk of flipping, requiring concentration and engine power. Losing engine power in an F8 would have definitely meant flipping and being thrown out. Breaking waves and you're dead in any case.

A bigger dinghy with bigger tubes might do somewhat better, but no sub-20 foot boat of almost any type is really safe in the open sea in strong conditions.

If you have to abandon in benign conditions and have both a raft and a good dinghy, the answer I think is BOTH -- tie them together. Being in a liferaft is utterly miserable and should never be thought of as anything other than a last ditch way of staying out of the water.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Q?

do you carry a crash pump?

if not, why not? It would be a piece of gear that stacked things in your favor (both for dewatering and fire fighting).

do you carry a defibrillator?

if not, why not?

Do you carry a 100kg storm anchor?
Do you carry both a para-anchor and a drogue (and 600' rodes for them)?

and so on . . . .

The decision criteria of 'as many things in my favor as possible' leads to an endless loop.

Yes I carry a crash pump.. Lol. Let me rephrase it for you, i carry the stuff that I believe puts the odds in my favor relative to what I feel is most risky.

You are very experienced knowledable sailor (although abit grumpy) that I respect. I've read your opinion regarding liferafts in previous threads and disagree with your view, and yes Ive read your arguments against life rafts.

I'm more concerned about hitting a whale on the way to south Africa than having a heart attack (I'm 49 and fit) , thus the life raft over the defibrillator. This is based on knowing several people I know that have hit whales. If my boat was to go down I believe a liferaft is a better choice than a dinghy for a variety of reasons.

You've surely made decisions in the past that you thought put the odds in your favor ie Aluminium boat?

For the sake of $1,800 I'll stack the odds in my favor with a life raft, and this dosent mean I won't try to save the boat in an emergency.