Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[daletournier]

Hi Ken, what are your reasons for not having a life raft? Genuine question. Personally, other than money I can't think of a downside.

And for the record I have absolutely no problem with others choosing not to have one, your boat your choice, I'm not that attached to my opinion here.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi Ken, what are your reasons for not having a life raft? Genuine question. Personally, other than money I can't think of a downside.

And for the record I have absolutely no problem with others choosing not to have one, your boat your choice, I'm not that attached to my opinion here.

Just not sure it’s absolutely necessary given all the other safety stuff we already have onboard and the routing precautions being taken.

We will have a pre-inflated dinghy lashed down absent of the outboard while enroute. The life raft isn’t a no-go at this point... I’m still undecided. Do you wear a drsuit on your boat in bad weather? I do.

So far, I’m leaning towards Pete’s idea of buying one, then selling it upon arrival. Does Italy do craigslist?

[daletournier]

Hi Ken, no don't have a drysuit, most of my sailing has been in the tropics. I do want to get a couple, I see them as a good investment, it's actually been on my mind seeing we are heading further south.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by daletournier

. . . . . .

Sorry if that sounded grumpy, or any sort of attack.
I am actually not at all 'against' anyone carrying any gear they want to - whatever makes individuals feel comfortable.

I was just trying to point out two things:

#1 (we agree that) the raft decision has to be more complex than you initially suggested - it has to include a personal risk/cost assessment of various risks.

It just makes no sense (is actually physically impossible) to 'carry everything which could conceivably save you'.

and

#2 There are a whole lot of factors that affect a boat and crews safety beyond 'safety gear' - other types of gear (& tools and spares and raw materials) and seamanship skills, and just to suggest two more specific ones (very different ones) which don't get discussed very often: physical fitness (and health, which are somewhat different things) and language skills. Both those can and have affected the outcomes of actual incidents.

I personally believe one needs at least a reasonable understanding of the boat's status on the totality of the most important #2 factors, in order to make a good specific decision on #1 . . . . . because #2 defines your risk profile (eg what risks you are well prepared to avoid or handle and which ones you are not).

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

. . . . given all the other safety stuff we already have onboard . . .

Do you have a dewatering pump?

With or without a life raft, I think every boat should have on board a pump capable of dealing with a moderate flooding emergency, and many fewer boats have this, than have a life raft, although a good pump is not expensive and does not require expensive servicing.

Bilge pumps, even big ones, even a really good one like the Bilge Predator (my next boat will have several of those), might buy a certain amount of time, but will not be enough if the leak is complicated or hard to find. A fair amount of boats are lost to flooding, which might have been saved had there been a decent pump on board.

A proper dewatering pump will have at least a couple of kW of power, will have a heavy duty macerator to deal with bilge debris, and will discharge through at least a 3" hose.

Another thing which may save your boat is a well thought-out flooding emergency plan.


Such a pump could also be used to deal with the other thing which can cause an abandon ship situation -- a big fire. Our little toy powder extinguishers could hardly deal with a real fire. But some fires on boats can't be dealt with with any gear or technique whatsoever. Anyone whose seen a plastic boat burn to the waterline knows that that looks like :shudder: It can happen with horrifying speed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Sorry if that sounded grumpy, or any sort of attack.
I am actually not at all 'against' anyone carrying any gear they want to - whatever makes individuals feel comfortable.

I was just trying to point out two things:

#1 (we agree that) the raft decision has to be more complex than you initially suggested - it has to include a personal risk/cost assessment of various risks.

It just makes no sense (is actually physically impossible) to 'carry everything which could conceivably save you'.

and

#2 There are a whole lot of factors that affect a boat and crews safety beyond 'safety gear' - gear and seamanship skills, and just to suggest two more specific ones (very different ones) which don't get discussed very often: physical fitness (and health, which are somewhat different things) and language skills. Both those can and have affected the outcomes of actual incidents.

I personally believe one needs at least a reasonable understanding of the boat's status on the totality of the most important #2 factors, in order to make a good specific decision on #1 . . . . . because #2 defines your risk profile (eg what risks you are well prepared to avoid or handle and which ones you are not).

I think that this description of the correct, rational process of evaluating this issue is absolutely right. And I think it is also absolutely correct that regarding a life raft as a kind of panacea, leading one to neglect various other aspects of safety, is very bad.

Safety is a complex thing requiring tradeoffs everywhere.

But in my opinion, a life raft makes sense for just about anyone who spends much time out of sight of land, and particularly in cold water, particularly in a plastic boat without multiple watertight compartments, who is not so limited in money or storage space that having a raft requires undue compromises on other measures and other gear. For example, if you had to forgo having an EPIRB in order to afford a life raft I would certainly think twice.

Also maintenance -- having a life raft is no kind of excuse for not performing proper maintenance before going far out to sea or crossing an ocean. When did you last have your rudder out and steering gear taken apart and cleaned, lubricated, and inspected? Have your keel bolts inspected and tightened? Have your rig and your boat's structure surveyed? I've just done all of that last month before heading to the Arctic, and all of this should be done on a regular basis on boats used in blue water.


Or in some cases you don't actually have any choice -- for example, UK flagged vessels over 45 feet are required to carry life rafts. One of the very very few requirements under this extremely laissez-faire flag. So in my case, there's nothing to think about -- it's a legal requirement.

[daletournier]

Here's something else to contemplate. Which is easier to deploy in bad weather (although bad weather isn't a prerequisite) the life raft or a dinghy strapped on the fore deck?

IMO both would be difficult, but in my case if it was really blowing I think I would find the dinghy would be the more difficult one to deploy . I don't like my life raft position but I believe I can get it deployed of the stern.

In ok weather then either wouldn't be a problem.

Secondly the liferaft is prepacked for survival (to some degree) , combine this with the easy to reach prepacked grab back and we are sorted.,im assuming the dinghy is empty.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think that this description of the correct, rational process of evaluating this issue is absolutely right. . . . . Safety is a complex thing requiring tradeoffs everywhere.

Lovely, we can agree on the big picture

a life raft makes sense for just about anyone who spends much time out of sight of land, . . . . For example, if you had to forgo having an EPIRB in order to afford a life raft I would certainly think twice.

but we will have to disagree on the universality of this statement (I do see and appreciate you said 'just about' to make it not totally absolute). Beth & I made a relatively informed and thoughtful decision (twice) not to carry a raft. It was the correct decision for us.

One of my personal lessons over the years is that there are many many very different ways, objectives and philosophy of cruising, and blanket statements of universality are rarely correct.

Rafts were much less common among our 'mentors' back when we started world cruising. They in part reflect a much bigger change that occured to the cruising community's culture and philosophy during our time. My desire is to communicate that there are a whole lot of ways to get safe(r). I don't feel any need to 'sell' our decision to others, so I will just leave it there.

............

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

..but we will have to disagree on the universality of this statement ..........

Well, I didn't claim "universality". Of course it's an individual decision including among many other things tolerance of risk. For goodness sake, I have known people who refused to have an EPIRB on board because they thought that it would be better to die than to put some SAR worker at risk in case of a disaster. To each his own!

I also think that it's a very different situation in a metal boat with multiple water tight compartments, than one of our production boats. I think a basically unsinkable catamaran is another case which might be different. I would nevertheless have had a raft, both on your boat, and on a cat, but to each his own. It's also important to realize that having a heroic pro-active character and being a genius of problem solving still doesn't mean that you can't sink or catch fire.

I also think it's a really good point that a raft should not be a substitute for other important safety gear, and especially should not be in anyone's mind a substitute for proper maintenance and inspection.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Do you have a dewatering pump?

With or without a life raft, I think every boat should have on board a pump capable of dealing with a moderate flooding emergency, and many fewer boats have this, than have a life raft, although a good pump is not expensive and does not require expensive servicing.

Bilge pumps, even big ones, even a really good one like the Bilge Predator (my next boat will have several of those), might buy a certain amount of time, but will not be enough if the leak is complicated or hard to find. A fair amount of boats are lost to flooding, which might have been saved had there been a decent pump on board.

A proper dewatering pump will have at least a couple of kW of power, will have a heavy duty macerator to deal with bilge debris, and will discharge through at least a 3" hose.

Another thing which may save your boat is a well thought-out flooding emergency plan.


Such a pump could also be used to deal with the other thing which can cause an abandon ship situation -- a big fire. Our little toy powder extinguishers could hardly deal with a real fire. But some fires on boats can't be dealt with with any gear or technique whatsoever. Anyone whose seen a plastic boat burn to the waterline knows that that looks like :shudder: It can happen with horrifying speed.

We have four bilge pumps including a spare for the largest.

Predator pumps are total junk, we returned ours when it self destructed after only six weeks last season due to galvanic corrosion, the company mixes stainless and aluminum parts (see photos). I have the replacement pump which is brand new, sent under warranty if you’d like to buy it. Another issue.... it failed to lift the bilge water more than three feet and self prime.

[mikereed100]

When I google "Predator pump" this is what I get.



It would take a determined commitment to de-water with one of those.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

When I google "Predator pump" this is what I get.



It would take a determined commitment to de-water with one of those.

Well . . . you know the old saying about the scared sailor on a sinking ship who's down to his last pump.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

On our Oyster 53 which is presently for sale in Italy.... We’ve always had an eight person Avon life raft which has never been used, and I now question the need to have one.

Three weeks from now, four of us will embark on a trans Atlantic sail across to Gibraltar with a stopover in the Azores on our new Oyster 62 which does not presently have a life raft, so I’d like to discuss if there is in fact an actual need to have one.

Here’s what we do have:

1. EPIRB
2. Sat phone
3. Survival suits and/or dry suit
4. Personal EPIRB
5. Brand new 11ft aluminum bottom PVC dinghy
6. Tethers and inflatable life vests
7. Multiple handheld waterproof VHF
8. Fully equipped ditch bag

The plan is to keep the dinghy inflated on the foredeck tied down or on the afterdeck tied down if the conditions were to become concerning. We also plan to use a professional weather routing service out of Boston to keep us in the good weather. The boat can easily crank out 200+ miles per day which should also help keep us in the good weather.

Is a life raft really a necessity? My thoughts are no it’s not... with my rational being that I’d always prefer to remain on the mothership until the need to climb UP onto the dinghy should occure, and that the dinghy is actually constructed well enough to have a 15hp motor attached and driven to speeds exceeding 20mph. So I’d much rather board a dinghy instead of the life raft anyway. Another issue... the dinghy is already inflated, whereas I’d need to count on an automatic inflation device working with the life raft.

I’d like to hear some forum feedback while I’m still trying to decide on whether or not to purchase another life raft that’ll most likely just get in the way over the next 15 years.

My take is that an inflatable dinghy is more durable than any liferaft but the liferaft will be more stable in certain weather conditions.

Most of the circumstances where you would take to a liferaft allow sufficient time to take to the dinghy instead, especially if it is already inflated.

Once I get the time I intend to build a canopy for my inflatable. Arches will be fiberglass rods pushed thru the center of oversized pool noodles.

In my case the question of a liferaft is moot, I don’t have room. Instead I have started filling all the unusable spaces on my boat with foam. It’s not unsinkable yet but is getting there.

[Catapault]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

On our Oyster 53 which is presently for sale in Italy.... We’ve always had an eight person Avon life raft which has never been used, and I now question the need to have one.

Three weeks from now, four of us will embark on a trans Atlantic sail across to Gibraltar with a stopover in the Azores on our new Oyster 62 which does not presently have a life raft, so I’d like to discuss if there is in fact an actual need to have one.

Here’s what we do have:

1. EPIRB
2. Sat phone
3. Survival suits and/or dry suit
4. Personal EPIRB
5. Brand new 11ft aluminum bottom PVC dinghy
6. Tethers and inflatable life vests
7. Multiple handheld waterproof VHF
8. Fully equipped ditch bag

The plan is to keep the dinghy inflated on the foredeck tied down or on the afterdeck tied down if the conditions were to become concerning. We also plan to use a professional weather routing service out of Boston to keep us in the good weather. The boat can easily crank out 200+ miles per day which should also help keep us in the good weather.

Is a life raft really a necessity? My thoughts are no it’s not... with my rational being that I’d always prefer to remain on the mothership until the need to climb UP onto the dinghy should occure, and that the dinghy is actually constructed well enough to have a 15hp motor attached and driven to speeds exceeding 20mph. So I’d much rather board a dinghy instead of the life raft anyway. Another issue... the dinghy is already inflated, whereas I’d need to count on an automatic inflation device working with the life raft.

I’d like to hear some forum feedback while I’m still trying to decide on whether or not to purchase another life raft that’ll most likely just get in the way over the next 15 years.

My 2c.

Buy a liferaft. If you REALLY need it, a dinghy won't do the job.

The #1 reason is Shelter. a Dinghy is open, a liferaft is not. If you have to spend ANY serious amount of time it (days), this can be the difference between life an death.

Dinghy really don't handle truly rough seas. If its storm force, a dinghy is quite likely going over, and dump everyone in the ocean, and end up inverted, with the motor toast. (Think how easy it is to tip one in a serious sea / beach swell). One breaking wave or beam on and could be history.

Life rafts really REALLY suck to be in, that is true. If I had to abandon the boat, and could also take the dinghy along, I certainly would !, but the liferaft comes first.


If you go the Dinghy route, ensure the following.
1. You can deploy it in approx 30 seconds. With it secure enough to board. Yet remain secure onboard in storm force.

2. You can total shade it, sufficient to tolerate gale if not storm force conditions, and ideally waterproof (or close to it).

Check out the specs a SOLAR liferaft is built to, and see if you can make the dinghy match it. Yes Liferafts have several failure modes, but I think a dinghy has more.


PS: I've spent 2 1/2 days in a Liferaft and seperatly a survival suit during various Naval training, in moderate Ocean Swell. They REALLY suck to be in. But I'd still prefer it over an open dinghy.

Regards

Mark.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Personally other than cost I don't see the downside of having a life raft onboard.
Sure I didn't want to pay the $1800 to get mine serviced and a epirb added, BUT if it all went pear shape in a big way and the boats going down on a dark and stormy night I want as many things in my favor as possible, I see a life raft as one more thing that stacks the odds in my favor.

Exactly my point too....