Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Personally other than cost I don't see the downside of having a life raft onboard.

Evans has been quite articulate on the downsides. His primary reason is that one may be less inclined to actually solve the problem when a life raft is available. I see his point, and he has some research and experience to back it up, but I still carry a raft when I think it appropriate (or when mandated by racing rules).

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

When I google "Predator pump" this is what I get.



It would take a determined commitment to de-water with one of those.

Best post yet.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Evans has been quite articulate on the downsides. His primary reason is that one may be less inclined to actually solve the problem when a life raft is available. I see his point, and he has some research and experience to back it up, but I still carry a raft when I think it appropriate (or when mandated by racing rules).

"Maybe less inclined to actually solve the problem when a life raft is available" ,..... thats far from conclusive.

As I mentioned before, I respect Evans-experience and I appreciate his posting that we all learn from BUT in regards to "he's been quite articulate regarding the downsides of having a life raft on board" these are just his opinions, not gospel and not indisputable. I for one disagree, I don't see a downside other than cost.

I know of two boats (first hand) that went down very quickly after colliding with something, . One boat of New Zealand filled to knee height in minutes their was very little time. Matt and crew abandoned into their dinghy. Fortunately they were coastal and were in phone reception so were picked up relatively quickly, dinghy was sufficent due to location. Last year steel boat took on water very fast near Mayotte, deliverery skipper coundnt determine the source of leak with water rising fast. They deployed life raft that opened as intended and lived to tell the tale. Both boats sunk quickly.

In regards to not fighting to save the ship, couldn't it be argued that your dinghy may stop you from fighting hard as well? If it applies to your life raft escape pod then why dosent it apply to your dinghy escape pod? Sorry but I disagree with that argument.

Worst case scenario is the life raft sits on deck, never used, and is a waste of money.

Ps. I know of a third boat (a Malo) that was lost. The skipper who I've cruised with fought for over 24hrs (it could of been longer, I can't remember) to keep the boat a float although he had a life raft. They hand pumped, diverted engine cooling pump and of course bilge pumps. They new the problem but were unable to fix it. They could of hopped in the life raft at the start rather than fight but didn't. They were picked up by a ship as he believed he couldn't keep the boat a float for the nessacary 400nm, the water was winning and their strength going down.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by daletournier

"Maybe less inclined to actually solve the problem when a life raft is available" ,..... thats far from conclusive.

As I mentioned before, I respect Evans-experience and I appreciate his posting that we all learn from BUT in regards to "he's been quite articulate regarding the downsides of having a life raft on board" these are just his opinions, not gospel and not indisputable. I for one disagree, I don't see a downside other than cost.

I know of two boats (first hand) that went down very quickly after colliding with something, . One boat of New Zealand filled to knee height in minutes their was very little time. Matt and crew abandoned into their dinghy. Fortunately they were coastal and were in phone reception so were picked up relatively quickly, dinghy was sufficent due to location. Last year steel boat took on water very fast near Mayotte, deliverery skipper coundnt determine the source of leak with water rising fast. They deployed life raft that opened as intended and lived to tell the tale. Both boats sunk quickly.

In regards to not fighting to save the ship, couldn't it be argued that your dinghy may stop you from fighting hard as well? If it applies to your life raft escape pod then why dosent it apply to your dinghy escape pod? Sorry but I disagree with that argument.

Worst case scenario is the life raft sits on deck, never used, and is a waste of money.

Ps. I know of a third boat (a Malo) that was lost. The skipper who I've cruised with fought for over 24hrs (it could of been longer, I can't remember) to keep the boat a float although he had a life raft. They hand pumped, diverted engine cooling pump and of course bilge pumps. They new the problem but were unable to fix it. They could of hopped in the life raft at the start rather than fight but didn't. They were picked up by a ship as he believed he couldn't keep the boat a float for the nessacary 400nm, the water was winning and their strength going down.

Several good points on your long comment above.
I have made bold one that I have thought before (but not raised on the forum before).

Some say having a Life Raft aboard will lead to "too early" abandonment of a sinking boat.

By the same logic, the dinghy some propose to use in its place would serve the same (psychologically, not necessarily in effectiveness) by giving Crew the ready "life boat" to enter rather than fighting to save the mother ship from sinking or fire..

As I see it, the matter here is a one of human behavior in times of great stress. How will anyone respond then, especially if the conditions (sea state, fire, sinking, collision, injury) are overwhelming to the crew or members of it, including the captain?

During those times, I suspect most people will see the dinghy as very similar to the life raft, as they want to escape whatever bad has happened or is happening to the mother ship.

Put another way, I don't buy the argument that most people (or any) would stay aboard the sinking or on fire mother ship any longer, just because they carry an inflatable RIB (which is already inflated and on deck or davits) instead of a life raft. To the desperate or overwhelmed person, that inflatable RIB may look as appealing as a life raft. So, no difference in that respect.

My point?
If the "already inflated, ready to cut loose" dinghy is supposed to be ready to jettison or launch quickly, it would have the same psychological appeal as instant relief or escape from the perceived greater danger of the fire or sinking vessel.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Why not just use an inflatable RIB as a life raft?

An inflatable dinghy may seem ideal for several reasons. It may even be preferable, in some circumstances, if the conditions are just right (e.g. Coastal location, close to land, low winds and low waves, etc.).

But one should consider other conditions, that are also likely to be the reason for mothership abandonment..

What if the conditions are not "just right" for an inflatable or RIB?

What if there are high winds, high waves, and the sinking boat is far from land?

What if there are breaking waves?

What about the RIB or inflatable dinghy?

See this video to see how an RIB can be easily flipped by a short breaking wave. Watch as a 1,500 pound large RIB is easily flipped by a short breaking wave caused by a vessel wake on otherwise relatively calm water. The crew was unable to flip it back over without more people to help.

While this was not filmed on the open ocean, the wind and waves and breaking waves on the ocean can be much worse, much higher and more powerful.

So consider this: What would happen if you did abandon ship into a large RIB that was then flipped by a wave? Would you be able to right it while in the water in the conditions that cause the flip? Would you lose all of your safety gear (ditch bag)? Would you lose members of your crew?

https://youtu.be/nrmD0WxtJAc?t=1m55s

https://youtu.be/nrmD0WxtJAc?t=1m55s

Here is a link to the full video, where you can see the sea state (almost calm) prior to the dinghy flip point. The dinghy flips at 1:55 in the video.
https://youtu.be/nrmD0WxtJAc

My view is that it would be preferable to be in a high quality offshore designed, Life Raft that is designed to be self-ballasting (water in ballast bags below the raft). Some life rafts are even designed to be self-righting.

[Cadence]

Going back to the post of having a 19 year old raft never inspected. I doubt they need it as often as recommended but would hate to have a false sense of security.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

Why not just use an inflatable RIB as a life raft?
..
See this video to see how an RIB can be easily flipped by a short breaking wave. Watch as a 1,500 pound large RIB is easily flipped by a short breaking wave caused by a vessel wake on otherwise relatively calm water. The crew was unable to flip it back over without more people to help.

Pretty sure there are plenty of examples of rafts blowing away before people could get in them.
Rafts tipping over and over and over again
And rafts simply falling apart.

There is a reason some call them death rafts

But, if we had limited space so not able to carry a sizeable alternative escape vehicle I guess a raft would be what we'd have to consider.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Pretty sure there are plenty of examples of rafts blowing away before people could get in them.
Rafts tipping over and over and over again
And rafts simply falling apart.

There is a reason some call them death rafts

Rafts blowing away?
The same criticism could be made against an inflatable dinghy blowing away.

The solution?
Secure the raft or dinghy with a painter BEFORE you toss it over the side!

Examples of rafts tipping over are real. But WHICH raft?

Most recently made OFFSHORE life rafts are designed to be self-ballasting. And provision has been made on some to have "righting straps" on the bottom, in case the empty raft flips before crew has entered it.

Earlier (and some coastal) rafts were not ballasted. They were simple "play pool" designs that could easily flip in wind.

So…pick the right model for your voyage.

"Rafts falling apart?"
True, some rafts have fallen apart. But WHICH ones? Were they old? Many sailors don't service their rafts they own, despite years of ownership. They are inflatable rubber or fabric chambers, just like an inflatable dinghy.

But, consider the real possibility that the already inflated (and hence vulnerable to puncture) RIB on deck may suffer from catastrophic damage if the rig comes down, or in a collision or fire. I think it is possible the RIB would NOT be able to be used when needed in an emergency.

I don't think your points (blown away, fell apart) are convincing me that rafts are more prone to failure during the emergency need.

[Simi 60]

I don't do deflatables either.

Our intended escape pod is our daily use dinghy.
4.3m aluminium, high side and extra beamy with a 30hp on the back.
Non deflating buoyancy foam collar at chine for extra stability and dare I say, unsinkability.
Harnesses, lifejackets, epirb, 20L water, flares, plotter, bilge pump, extinguisher, tarpaulin always on board.
Additional 80 litres of fuel and additional 20L water a few feet away ready to put in.

Mounted on davits, and always attached with a 14mm tow line it can be in the water in a minute or two or even less if using a knife .

We don't do cold water, our longest open water leg is 700nm and we always wait for a near perfect weather window, so for us, the above choice suits us.

Of course, not everyone can carry something like that so I guess you have to use what you can use.
If I was sailing and crossing oceans my choice may well be different.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

[.

But, consider the real possibility that the already inflated (and hence vulnerable to puncture) RIB on deck may suffer from catastrophic damage if the rig comes down, or in a collision or fire. I think it is possible the RIB would NOT be able to be used when needed in an emergency.
.

A rig dropped on a liferaft case or a fire could see the end to that as well.
What ifs can end anything

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

A rig dropped on a liferaft case or a fire could see the end to that as well.
What ifs can end anything

I had the same thought about what ifs. Although in a bad situation if it can happen it probably will.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by daletournier

"Maybe less inclined to actually solve the problem when a life raft is available"

That's . . . . just his opinion

It is actually not an opinion, but rather a known fact about myself.

I speculate that I may not be too unusual and others may share the trait, but not have had the experiences necessary to know it. And I speculate that others do not share the trait. Who is who, is rather difficult to tell unless you have been thru several extreme survival situations. PS - but it is again a fact and not simply opinion that there HAVE been incidents where people have left boats too early, and could have saved the boats if they had not . . . And yes, also cases of people who worked very very hard to save their boats. so both types of incidents do exist.

I dont have much interest in try to convince people of this, but do think it would be worthwhile to be aware of some of the possible psychology of extreme situations.

Even in non-extreme situations, having options can determine a different course of action. We occasionally cruised with insurance and occasionally without, and I (would not have guessed it and was not so pleased to discover it) realized that I did in fact act (a little bit) differently in the two situations. Having the ability to 'walk away whole' did have a practical effect.

Finally, while on psychology and philosophy . . . many people feel their death would be an ultimate tragedy and to be avoided or risk minimized at great cost. I am rather more in the 'we are in fact all going to die, and the important thing is to live now to the fullest'.

[Steadman Uhlich]

[/I]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

A rig dropped on a liferaft case or a fire could see the end to that as well.
What ifs can end anything

I would not have my liferaft under the mast or near it if possible.

I have been close beside a boat that dismasted in 30 knots of wind, and seen and read of damaged stuff on deck when a rig comes down. And seen the videos of fire that made being on the cabin top a bad location too.

I think it is better at the stern or in the cockpit of smaller sailboats.
__________

What ifs are what this forum is all about. That and WTF.

[Simi 60]

. one may be less inclined to actually solve the problem when a life raft is available.

I tend to agree.

The Seatow thread on here demonstrates this.
People tend to do silly things and or pay less attention to nav and depth when someone is there to bail them out.
If you don't have an easy out you do things differently.

Possible lack of real experience as well.
I was reading a site recently where some yachts sailing in a rally were caught in fishnets.
Conditions weren't bad and lives weren't at risk but they activated epirbs.

[james247]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

On our Oyster 53 which is presently for sale in Italy.... We’ve always had an eight person Avon life raft which has never been used, and I now question the need to have one.

Three weeks from now, four of us will embark on a trans Atlantic sail across to Gibraltar with a stopover in the Azores on our new Oyster 62 which does not presently have a life raft, so I’d like to discuss if there is in fact an actual need to have one.

Here’s what we do have:

1. EPIRB
2. Sat phone
3. Survival suits and/or dry suit
4. Personal EPIRB
5. Brand new 11ft aluminum bottom PVC dinghy
6. Tethers and inflatable life vests
7. Multiple handheld waterproof VHF
8. Fully equipped ditch bag

The plan is to keep the dinghy inflated on the foredeck tied down or on the afterdeck tied down if the conditions were to become concerning. We also plan to use a professional weather routing service out of Boston to keep us in the good weather. The boat can easily crank out 200+ miles per day which should also help keep us in the good weather.

Is a life raft really a necessity? My thoughts are no it’s not... with my rational being that I’d always prefer to remain on the mothership until the need to climb UP onto the dinghy should occure, and that the dinghy is actually constructed well enough to have a 15hp motor attached and driven to speeds exceeding 20mph. So I’d much rather board a dinghy instead of the life raft anyway. Another issue... the dinghy is already inflated, whereas I’d need to count on an automatic inflation device working with the life raft.

I’d like to hear some forum feedback while I’m still trying to decide on whether or not to purchase another life raft that’ll most likely just get in the way over the next 15 years.

To achieve insurance status for this trip and to comply with numerous international regulations you will need a life raft.
You have a responsibility to the other crew to carry all safety equipment that might save or extend their chances of being saved in a real emergency. A life raft is considered to be one such device.