Life Raft for Coastal...Yes or No?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

How do you plan to sail from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland in “less than a day?”

Specifically, from where to where?

The boat can easily do 200 miles in a day without much effort, so there are several options.

Here’s just one example of a 170nm crossing.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by fatherchronica

You are more likely to need a liferaft near land. When Bill Tilman sank his 2nd or 3rd boat they were luckily able to climb onto the rock they hit and eventually another boat passing through the heavily traveled 1960's waters of Greenland saw them and all was well. I only have a tiny 36 footer, but I consider a liferaft more important than an engine. I sailed my first cruising boat for several years without an engine or a liferaft. In fact my cheap yellow army surplus store inflatable dinghy required my 3 pack a day habit lungs to inflate it, which I could accomplish in 20 minutes. I bet maybe 19 minutes if we were sinking.

Timans second boat! I had his 3rd for 15 years He was very lucky until fate caught up with him. Actually, for the waters he sailed, he did not do to bad with only two losses.

If you run aground, a dinghy is much more use than a life raft that you can not propel. The OP has a capable dinghy on davits, probably faster to launch than the life raft.

[Vivienne-Claire]

It would take some time to launch our dinghy compared to liferaft (and it is likely that Kenomac has the same set up as us). Consider undoing any cross straps keeping dinghy from swinging on the davits, dropping dinghy down off davits enough to be able to cut the wires/lines (electric off, then have to find the right winch..). Personally, if given the choice I would like to have both dinghy and liferaft with me in an emergency situation, but I am fairly certain and hopeful haha the liferaft will be ready and floating long before I can get the dinghy into the water.


One other consideration, a liferaft is much more visible than a dinghy.

[roland stockham]

If sailing solo then this would be entirely up to you as you would only be risking your own life. If you sail with crew then you duty of care requires you to take all reasonable precautions to preserve life in the event of a foreseeable accident. I think it likely that both the coroner and you insurance would consider you negligent if an incident such as a fire led to loss of life because you did not carry normal lifesaving equipment.
I am also somewhat concerned that you may not properly understand the area you are heading for. I don't know Nova Scotia that well but it is high latitude with an artic current influence. I would expect survival times in water to be measured in mins and for people in an open dingy to be suffering hypothermia within an hour. Response times for Halifax SAR vary from 30min to 2hr depending on time and day of the week. That's the time to launch not the time for rescue. The coast is renown for fog which may make helicopter operations difficult at times. If you need a boat deployed from Halifax to the south end of Nova scotia thats 5hr event at 25kn and they have to find you. Even via helicopter it would be around 1hr. So best case expect to be picked up in about 3hr, worst case 3-4hr buy helicopter or at least 8hr by ship. Sea temp is typically under 50deg in mid summer + maybe 10-15degF windchill so effectively just above freezing. A fit young person in an open is likely to be in trouble within 2hrs. In a life raft with a canopy and insulated floor plus some good foulies that would extend to 24-48hrs. As everyone says - Your choice, the team will always try their best but would prefer you did to.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Depends on the coast. Where the possibility of heavy fog exists at any time of the year, and where the water is cold, where there are strong tides and currents, where there's a lot of fishing and cargo traffic, some of which is not AIS-transmitting, and when the weather can kick up suddenly, my views would change. I would veer toward having a life raft in the Canadian Maritimes because of the cold water alone in a way I would simply take to the Zodiac island-hopping in the Caribbean...with the same boat.

Very good point.

Thanks

[KrazySailing]

Re: Distance from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland.
- Dingwall, Nova Scotia (small fishing port on northern tip of Nova Scotia) to Port Aux Basque, Newfoundland (Ferry terminal to NS) 78 nm ( I sailed this route in 2011)

- Sydney, Nova Scotia (bay with ferry terminal to Newfoundland) to Port Aux Basque, Newfoundland (Ferry terminal) 112nm

[Mystktravler]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Many of you are probably familiar with my life raft discussion for our previously planned Atlantic crossing. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...no-202684.html

Now plans have changed due to a late start and Mrs Mac’s vacation schedule, so we’re now heading up to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland for a few months and the Atlantic crossing will need to wait until May 2019 or 2020. I’m not feeling the urgency to purchase a life raft for what will be coastal cruising and one very short passage lasting less than a day. We’ll have the dinghy on the davit system along with coastal support rescue available via EPIRB activation and SAT phone.



I’d like to begin a discussion on the absolute need for a life raft for coastal cruising in todays environment with Search and rescue personell so readily available. We have an extensive fire supression system aboard including two water hose systems (fresh and seawater) along with engine room supression and over 15 fire extinguishers for those discussion participants who want to focus on fire. We also have an extensive weather monitoring system onboard which now includes an Iridium Go for grib files on Weather4D pro, pocket gribs, Predictwind Offshore and Windy.

I decision will need to be made quickly due to 10 day delivery time from the UK.

“Search and rescue personell so readily available “Ya great put other people’s lives in danger, because of your ineptitude....btw one L...

[IdoraKeeper]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Do you care to add anything constructive to the discussion?

Sure, the risk covered by the raft is the loss of the boat. The reasons that might happen are magnified in higher traffic areas. I don't know the Med but certainly you encountered high traffic areas. You have fire covered, no doubt you can handle mechanical/teething issues with a new boat. Watchkeeping issues move to the front of the line. Where I sail getting run down is a huge issue. So are hazards to navigation. These are rapid disasters. A raft that auto deploys makes sense in high traffic areas with cold water and frequent fog. It might not be you that makes the critical error but the result is the same.

[Taipe]

My 8' Lyle Hess design, Fatty Knees sailing dinghy is made for oaring and sailing in choppy water. It is unsinkable, comes with a dry locker in the bow, and substitutes in place of an inflatable, w/o outboard motor or gasoline, and no need for a liferaft, provided that there are no more than two people aboard. I am converting it into a life raft by adding a forward spray cover and end-to-end 3" diameter fenders to ward off the white caps.

[tomrealest]

How much do you value your wife and your life? Do you want to die of exposure or drowning? Go ahead and save your money. I pray to God you get to spend it instaed of losing your life to the unexpected.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

. . . I am also somewhat concerned that you may not properly understand the area you are heading for. I don't know Nova Scotia that well but it is high latitude with an artic current influence. I would expect survival times in water to be measured in mins and for people in an open dingy to be suffering hypothermia within an hour. Response times for Halifax SAR vary from 30min to 2hr depending on time and day of the week. That's the time to launch not the time for rescue. The coast is renown for fog which may make helicopter operations difficult at times. If you need a boat deployed from Halifax to the south end of Nova scotia thats 5hr event at 25kn and they have to find you. Even via helicopter it would be around 1hr. So best case expect to be picked up in about 3hr, worst case 3-4hr buy helicopter or at least 8hr by ship. Sea temp is typically under 50deg in mid summer + maybe 10-15degF windchill so effectively just above freezing. A fit young person in an open is likely to be in trouble within 2hrs. In a life raft with a canopy and insulated floor plus some good foulies that would extend to 24-48hrs. As everyone says - Your choice, the team will always try their best but would prefer you did to.

All very true and very important, but on the bright side, that is a cruising grounds very much after my own heart

Remote, wild, cold, gorgeous . . . . a far cry from the Med or the Carib and surely a fantastic place to cruise, for the adventurous and self-reliant.

[Drew13440]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

If sailing solo then this would be entirely up to you as you would only be risking your own life. If you sail with crew then you duty of care requires you to take all reasonable precautions to preserve life in the event of a foreseeable accident. I think it likely that both the coroner and you insurance would consider you negligent if an incident such as a fire led to loss of life because you did not carry normal lifesaving equipment.
I am also somewhat concerned that you may not properly understand the area you are heading for. I don't know Nova Scotia that well but it is high latitude with an artic current influence. I would expect survival times in water to be measured in mins and for people in an open dingy to be suffering hypothermia within an hour. Response times for Halifax SAR vary from 30min to 2hr depending on time and day of the week. That's the time to launch not the time for rescue. The coast is renown for fog which may make helicopter operations difficult at times. If you need a boat deployed from Halifax to the south end of Nova scotia thats 5hr event at 25kn and they have to find you. Even via helicopter it would be around 1hr. So best case expect to be picked up in about 3hr, worst case 3-4hr buy helicopter or at least 8hr by ship. Sea temp is typically under 50deg in mid summer + maybe 10-15degF windchill so effectively just above freezing. A fit young person in an open is likely to be in trouble within 2hrs. In a life raft with a canopy and insulated floor plus some good foulies that would extend to 24-48hrs. As everyone says - Your choice, the team will always try their best but would prefer you did to.

Beat me to it. I'll be more blunt, though. Anyone going into these waters is going to be dead before help can get there.

[malcolmlj]

Look up survival times in water of various temperatures
.Your view of survival will change.
I have sailed in UK and French waters for very many years, plus Trans-Atlantic, to Caribbean, USA, Canada.
Life raft a fixture on my Moody 38.
Dinghy of little or no use in poor weather conditions.
Like seat belts in your car, rarely needed, but then really needed !!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

Sure, the risk covered by the raft is the loss of the boat. The reasons that might happen are magnified in higher traffic areas. I don't know the Med but certainly you encountered high traffic areas. You have fire covered, no doubt you can handle mechanical/teething issues with a new boat. Watchkeeping issues move to the front of the line. Where I sail getting run down is a huge issue. So are hazards to navigation. These are rapid disasters. A raft that auto deploys makes sense in high traffic areas with cold water and frequent fog. It might not be you that makes the critical error but the result is the same.

That’s more like it. Thanks

[waterman46]

This almost seems a silly question, if you pardon my bluntness. Very cold water up there, and it seems crazy to me to not have any liferaft. Get it now, then you will be good without a re-pack for a couple years which will cover your Atlantic crossing timetable.

In coastal cruising I do think of fire or collision with unseen objects as the main issues in needing a liferaft. Is it just the two of you on board? You have more fire extinguishers than you need, but a person can only use one at a time. If you have, lets say, a propane explosion, it may be all you can do to just get to the raft and launch it, unless you have two or three other crewmembers who can fight the fire at the same time.

How long will it take to launch your dinghy? Is it inflated and ready to go? Is it stable enough to survive 6' breaking seas in 25 knots of wind? Those conditions are normal in a coastal passage, from time to time. And then you are in the water with no protection from cold and just your EPIRB and/or VHF/AIS if it didn't get lost in the capsize.

I would not go anywhere in the open ocean, coastal or not, warm or cold, without either a liferaft or a dependable buddy boat.