Life Raft for Coastal...Yes or No?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Mystktravler

“Search and rescue personell so readily available “Ya great put other people’s lives in danger, because of your ineptitude....btw one L...

Simply a lame argument. How does it matter as to whether we’re awaiting rescue in a life raft or a dinghy to SAR? We might even be able to self rescue in the dinghy with the outboard along the coast. Along a rocky coastline, taking to a life raft might in fact cause us to drift onto a rocky coastline to get smashed up against the rocks....

So maybe relying on the dinghy with outboard might be the better choice?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Vivienne-Claire

It would take some time to launch our dinghy compared to liferaft (and it is likely that Kenomac has the same set up as us). Consider undoing any cross straps keeping dinghy from swinging on the davits, dropping dinghy down off davits enough to be able to cut the wires/lines (electric off, then have to find the right winch..). Personally, if given the choice I would like to have both dinghy and liferaft with me in an emergency situation, but I am fairly certain and hopeful haha the liferaft will be ready and floating long before I can get the dinghy into the water.


One other consideration, a liferaft is much more visible than a dinghy.

Thanks for your contribution. I would also prefer to have the choice between the two, but also consider that the dinghy with outboard would be the better choice along a rocky coastline do it it’s ability to propell the occupants to a safer area.

[TrentePieds]

Ken:

You ask specifically about the ABSOLUTE need for a liferaft when going coastal. So since I'm strictly coastal, let me give you my thoughts on that.

There are IMO only TWO reasons that you might wish to abandon ship in coastal waters: 1) Uncontrollable fire, and 2) an uncontrollable leak with which the pump(s) cannot cope. In all other circumstances you are better off staying aboard.

In consequence, thought, effort and expense spent on worrying about a life raft, and the necessity for it, are far better spent on ensuring that a fire cannot become uncontrollable and that in the event of a holing, you can control and stem the inflow at least to the extent that pump(s) can cope with any residual.

As for fire: In a diesel auxiliary yot, there is really only one source of fire that might become uncontrolable: The propane supply. The requirement for a solenoid valve shut-off deals with that. Whether YOU flick the switch by the galley, or the fire severs the wiring, the flow of fuel will stop. The mandated extinguishers will cope with fire in solids, provided they are mounted so you can get at them. DON'T expend your extinguishers until you have only fire in solids to deal with! A fat-fire in a pot on the stove is most expeditiously dealt with by putting a lid on the pot depriving the fire of oxygen. The possibility of a propane leak in the supply line twixt tank and stove is remote indeed if you are conscientious about your “walk-around”s.

As for being holed: In days of yore it was “received wisdom” that in small boats you'd run a sail in under the hull so it would be “sucked into” the hole and stem the flow of water. You obviously cannot stem the flow entirely by that means, but provided your bilge pump(s) is/are adequate you can stay ahead of the residual inflow. You obviously cannot make way while so “bandaged” but as long as you can run your engine and keep the pump(s) going, that doesn't matter WHEN YOU ARE COASTAL. “They” will come and get you.

So why would you get holed? Here, in the Salish, the great danger is deadheads – huge logs that have floated free of the ubiquitous log booms being tugged from landing to mill. Only a sharp look-out protects against those,

Here in the Salish Sea the CCG and its auxiliary the Royal Canadian Search and Rescue have high speed ribbies stationed at intervals so small that one of them can reach you within a hour. In addition, these waters crawl with ships and yots all monitoring Channel 16. If the chips are really down, a helicopter will be despatched from Patricia Bay near Victoria or from CFB Comox near Campbell River.

A couple of years ago I was alongside in West Vancouver when a Mayday came from a woman who was clearly terrified. She was in a high powered gas pot a couple of miles off Bowen Island, and had a fire in her engine room. Shaking though her voice was, she stuck STRICTLY to protocol and answered clearly and succinctly CG's questions and that traffic was, of course, heard by all. This was indeed a potential “abandon ship” situation, but yots close by not only took her off, but by the time the CG arrived – in something like 20 minutes out of Horseshoe Bay — the assisting yotties had put out the fire. Later in the day the boat was towed into my marina. She was a total constructive loss. Two be-jasis big gas-guzzlers afire just where the “liferaft” woulda been, if she'd had one!

The more I see, the more I think “life rafts" are beside the point in coastal waters. I don't carry one, and any money that might be allocated to one, qua life raft rather than tender, should in my opinion be spent of a drysuit! Even in the summer the water temperature six foot down in the middle of the Straits of Georgia is something like 48ºF, i.e, something like 8ºC. The life expectancy of a “normal” unprotected person is something like 40 minutes, and that is if the thermal shock of the first immersion doesn't drown him!

Think also about the fact that in the Salish you can never be more that 12 miles from shore, i.e. 2 hours at our speeds, 20 minutes at RCSAR speeds.

So in summary: No, IMO, a life raft is NOT an absolute necessity for going coatal. But harken to old Baden-Powell: “Be prepared!”

TP

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by tomrealest

How much do you value your wife and your life? Do you want to die of exposure or drowning? Go ahead and save your money. I pray to God you get to spend it instaed of losing your life to the unexpected.

How’s about contributing something constructive to the discussion like the others have done, instead of spewing out emotional nonsense?

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Taipe

My 8' Lyle Hess design, Fatty Knees sailing dinghy is made for oaring and sailing in choppy water. It is unsinkable, comes with a dry locker in the bow, and substitutes in place of an inflatable, w/o outboard motor or gasoline, and no need for a liferaft, provided that there are no more than two people aboard. I am converting it into a life raft by adding a forward spray cover and end-to-end 3" diameter fenders to ward off the white caps.

I have owned a Fatty Knees. They are just a GREAT little dinghy. Fun, durable and practical--as a dinghy.

But... I really want to watch the video of you boarding the fatty knees in a seaway. Let's say 6 foot swells and a 3 foot chop on top of that. Oh, and your big boat is on fire behind you, so you have to hurry... You (and your crew) better be REALLY coordinated. When boarding that boat you do not have to put your foot very far off center to end up in the drink. I have watch several people do it--at the DOCK!

Can you get into that boat from the water? In ROUGH water? Are you SURE?

Just because you read about this as a good idea, doesn't make it so.

One important thing to remember about this discussion: Nobody is here to say "My boat sunk, I WISHED I had a proper liferaft." I wonder why?

[angelfish2]

Ken, I have given your “life raft or not” thread a lot of thought. Imho, I would have the life raft onboard...for my own peace of mind. Now as far as the coastal cruising thing...like others have said, it really depends on whether or not you guys are sailing in cold water or tropical water. I have done a lot of sailing in cold water (PNW and Flathead lake in Montana, plus Lake Michigan). Even spray from chilly water will freeze you to death. A dinghy is open and a life raft is enclosed.

I may be the world's biggest chicken, but just seeing a life raft up there on the fore deck would make me feel better. What does your honey say about it? She might have some practical advice.

Whatever you decide, your trip sounds like a lot of fun.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

Sure, the risk covered by the raft is the loss of the boat. The reasons that might happen are magnified in higher traffic areas. I don't know the Med but certainly you encountered high traffic areas. You have fire covered, no doubt you can handle mechanical/teething issues with a new boat. Watchkeeping issues move to the front of the line. Where I sail getting run down is a huge issue. So are hazards to navigation. These are rapid disasters. A raft that auto deploys makes sense in high traffic areas with cold water and frequent fog. It might not be you that makes the critical error but the result is the same.

No one has "fire covered", although it sounds like the OP has a really good setup for fighting a fire. This risk can be mitigated, but by no means eliminated.

It's worthwhile running through the reasons one might need to abandon ship, besides fire:

Flooding. Many possible causes, and without multiple watertight compartments, flooding can get out of control quickly. Especially if there is no dewatering pump on board, but even having a robust dewatering pump is no guaranty that you can master every flooding emergency.

Hull breach from a collision, hard grounding, etc. A number of yachts have been lost -- have sunk -- when whales jumped on them. Seriously. A serious hull breach on a boat without multiple watertight compartments can be impossible to deal with no matter what kind of pumps and other gear you have on board.

Grounding in conditions which will break the mother ship up before help can arrive. A much bigger risk in poorly charted (i.e. interesting) areas. As someone above mentioned, the dinghy will often be a better escape capsule from a grounding because you need to be able to move away from the site of the accident.

I'm sure there are many others.

The dinghy may be a good way to abandon ship in many cases, but not in rough conditions or very cold weather. Not in Newfoundland waters for sure. And if the dinghy has been prepared for passage in the davits with cross bracing etc., may take some time to launch. In rough weather the dinghy will be an unsuitable place to BE, but can also be impossible to launch from the stern while the boat pitches up and down.


Bit of thread drift, but maybe helpful to the OP -- in those latitudes, it is very desirable to have a way to get the dinghy out of the davits and on deck some where. Don't ask me how I know about this!!

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Taipe

My 8' Lyle Hess design, Fatty Knees sailing dinghy is made for oaring and sailing in choppy water. It is unsinkable, comes with a dry locker in the bow, and substitutes in place of an inflatable, w/o outboard motor or gasoline, and no need for a liferaft, provided that there are no more than two people aboard. I am converting it into a life raft by adding a forward spray cover and end-to-end 3" diameter fenders to ward off the white caps.

It would be interesting to see if this dinghy could avoid swamping or capsize in typical "small craft warning" conditions in the open ocean. In just 25 knots wind, steep 6' wind waves will build in a few hours, with breaking tops. This is more than just "choppy water" that is found in enclosed bays.

I would urge you to carry a big bucket at all times for bailing. And try intentional capsize, re-righting and bailing out, next to a beach but in water over your head sometime, see if you can deal with that.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Ken:

You ask specifically about the ABSOLUTE need for a liferaft when going coastal. So since I'm strictly coastal, let me give you my thoughts on that.

There are IMO only TWO reasons that you might wish to abandon ship in coastal waters: 1) Uncontrollable fire, and 2) an uncontrollable leak with which the pump(s) cannot cope. In all other circumstances you are better off staying aboard.

In consequence, thought, effort and expense spent on worrying about a life raft, and the necessity for it, are far better spent on ensuring that a fire cannot become uncontrollable and that in the event of a holing, you can control and stem the inflow at least to the extent that pump(s) can cope with any residual.

As for fire: In a diesel auxiliary yot, there is really only one source of fire that might become uncontrolable: The propane supply. The requirement for a solenoid valve shut-off deals with that. Whether YOU flick the switch by the galley, or the fire severs the wiring, the flow of fuel will stop. The mandated extinguishers will cope with fire in solids, provided they are mounted so you can get at them. DON'T expend your extinguishers until you have only fire in solids to deal with! A fat-fire in a pot on the stove is most expeditiously dealt with by putting a lid on the pot depriving the fire of oxygen. The possibility of a propane leak in the supply line twixt tank and stove is remote indeed if you are conscientious about your “walk-around”s.

As for being holed: In days of yore it was “received wisdom” that in small boats you'd run a sail in under the hull so it would be “sucked into” the hole and stem the flow of water. You obviously cannot stem the flow entirely by that means, but provided your bilge pump(s) is/are adequate you can stay ahead of the residual inflow. You obviously cannot make way while so “bandaged” but as long as you can run your engine and keep the pump(s) going, that doesn't matter WHEN YOU ARE COASTAL. “They” will come and get you.

So why would you get holed? Here, in the Salish, the great danger is deadheads – huge logs that have floated free of the ubiquitous log booms being tugged from landing to mill. Only a sharp look-out protects against those,

Here in the Salish Sea the CCG and its auxiliary the Royal Canadian Search and Rescue have high speed ribbies stationed at intervals so small that one of them can reach you within a hour. In addition, these waters crawl with ships and yots all monitoring Channel 16. If the chips are really down, a helicopter will be despatched from Patricia Bay near Victoria or from CFB Comox near Campbell River.

A couple of years ago I was alongside in West Vancouver when a Mayday came from a woman who was clearly terrified. She was in a high powered gas pot a couple of miles off Bowen Island, and had a fire in her engine room. Shaking though her voice was, she stuck STRICTLY to protocol and answered clearly and succinctly CG's questions and that traffic was, of course, heard by all. This was indeed a potential “abandon ship” situation, but yots close by not only took her off, but by the time the CG arrived – in something like 20 minutes out of Horseshoe Bay — the assisting yotties had put out the fire. Later in the day the boat was towed into my marina. She was a total constructive loss. Two be-jasis big gas-guzzlers afire just where the “liferaft” woulda been, if she'd had one!

The more I see, the more I think “life rafts" are beside the point in coastal waters. I don't carry one, and any money that might be allocated to one, qua life raft rather than tender, should in my opinion be spent of a drysuit! Even in the summer the water temperature six foot down in the middle of the Straits of Georgia is something like 48ºF, i.e, something like 8ºC. The life expectancy of a “normal” unprotected person is something like 40 minutes, and that is if the thermal shock of the first immersion doesn't drown him!

Think also about the fact that in the Salish you can never be more that 12 miles from shore, i.e. 2 hours at our speeds, 20 minutes at RCSAR speeds.

So in summary: No, IMO, a life raft is NOT an absolute necessity for going coatal. But harken to old Baden-Powell: “Be prepared!”

TP

Very good points. We do have a dinghy and survival suits onboard, and I do have a drysuit. So the cold water issue has been addressed. Our intent is to also avoid foul weather and pick sheltered anchorages, an ability I’m now very good at doing.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No one has "fire covered", although it sounds like the OP has a really good setup for fighting a fire. This risk can be mitigated, but by no means eliminated.

It's worthwhile running through the reasons one might need to abandon ship, besides fire:

Flooding. Many possible causes, and without multiple watertight compartments, flooding can get out of control quickly. Especially if there is no dewatering pump on board, but even having a robust dewatering pump is no guaranty that you can master every flooding emergency.

Hull breach from a collision, hard grounding, etc. A number of yachts have been lost -- have sunk -- when whales jumped on them. Seriously. A serious hull breach on a boat without multiple watertight compartments can be impossible to deal with no matter what kind of pumps and other gear you have on board.

Grounding in conditions which will break the mother ship up before help can arrive. A much bigger risk in poorly charted (i.e. interesting) areas. As someone above mentioned, the dinghy will often be a better escape capsule from a grounding because you need to be able to move away from the site of the accident.

I'm sure there are many others.

The dinghy may be a good way to abandon ship in many cases, but not in rough conditions or very cold weather. Not in Newfoundland waters for sure. And if the dinghy has been prepared for passage in the davits with cross bracing etc., may take some time to launch. In rough weather the dinghy will be an unsuitable place to BE, but can also be impossible to launch from the stern while the boat pitches up and down.


Bit of thread drift, but maybe helpful to the OP -- in those latitudes, it is very desirable to have a way to get the dinghy out of the davits and on deck some where. Don't ask me how I know about this!!

We tend to stay put in sheltered anchorages on windy or stormy days, then moving about on clear sunny days. There won’t be any long planned passages on potentially stormy days. Maybe no overnight adventures at all.

[waterman46]

As often is the case, Dockhead's response is really about the best here.

We have the automatic deployment feature on our liferaft so that if the boat just sinks out from under us before we can launch the raft (whales have sunk boats here on the West Coast, and we see them all the time) then we have some chance of seeing the liferaft pop up out of the ocean near us while we are floating around in our PFD's.

[Olddan1943]

On my trawler, I have a 6 man auto inflation raft mounted up the deck over the saloon. Also I have an Avon 10 ft with a 6 hp Honda. I also have enough PFDs to provide for everyone on board and enough extras to build a raft too.
Dont forget to grab the portable VHFs when leaving the boat and throw the EPIB over the side too. At some point YOU must make the decision to cut the tether to the boat.
EVERYONE must wear a PFD!!! IF they dont have enough, pass them some of your extras.
Even if you are rescuing people, tell them to put on their PFDs. What started out as an easy rescue, can turn 'nasty'.
IF you elect to install a life raft in a cradle, look up. You dont want it to catch on anything and go down with the ship.

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by waterman46

If you have, lets say, a propane explosion, .

I don't carry propane as I find the risk of explosion unacceptable. If I did I would definitely have a life raft set up to auto deploy. I have seen film of what happens and the the best case scenario seams to be that it happens when you are on deck so you get blown clear. When you wake up in the water hopefully the raft has self deployed and be in reach. Anyone below deck will not need it! The boat will be a fireball if not already heading for the bottom

[Dooglas]

I'm with TrentePieds. I've done quite a bit of coastal cruising in OR, WA, and BC. An inflatable dinghy with small OB is the mainstay around here. The water is cold, of course, so the next step up is a couple of dry suits with individual locating gadgetry. They work, they are cost effective, and they don't require frequent expensive servicing. It is what most all the commercial people here rely on.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

I don't carry propane as I find the risk of explosion unacceptable. If I did I would definitely have a life raft set up to auto deploy. I have seen film of what happens and the the best case scenario seams to be that it happens when you are on deck so you get blown clear. When you wake up in the water hopefully the raft has self deployed and be in reach. Anyone below deck will not need it! The boat will be a fireball if not already heading for the bottom

All cooking is electric via infrared oven and induction cooktop. We do carry two propane bottles in an aft locker disconnected from the stove for emergency or specialty use. There’s no way the bottles can leak or become a fire hazard.