Life Raft for Coastal...Yes or No?

[Uncle G]

Have you thought about how the remaining crew would cope in an emergency, should you be incapacitated for some reason?

[Fore and Aft]

Uncle G I could imagine Kenomac being incapicated during a disaster. He would probably be on the phone to his lawyer checking his liability if he drowns a crew member or his wife!!
Stuff does happen thats why we have an insurance industry.
Cheers

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Kenomac stop trolling and just buy the liferaft! I see you own two Oyster yachts so money is not the issue. Maybe you just want someone to blame after you have drowned a crew member?
I have a home built plywood yacht and have a liferaft onboard, along with every over piece of safety gear including wetsuits with built in PFDs
Mainly because we have two young kids onboard. Also our coastguard is a volunteer organisation here in Queensland so who knows how long a rescue might take?
I might be chicken but after years of working on trawlers of the NZ coast I know how quick the sh*t can hit the fan.
Cheers

Ken is not trolling -- he is genuinely interested in the question and decision making process, and it's a good discussion. I don't think it's irrelevant that 99.9% of boats of the class of Ken's carry rafts, but at the same time I think it is perfectly reasonable to hesitate doing it just because everyone else does, and try to analyze cost/benefit and drill into the real need for it in particular cases.



The most interesting thing for me which has come out of this thread is how many people believe that "it can't happen to me," and make safety decisions based on the idea that they are more skillful than others or their boat is superior or better prepared. I think there must also be an element of "It never happened to me, ergo it WILL never happen to me."


I believe this reflects a deep failure to grasp the nature of the various small but real risks involved in going to sea. I wonder if all of those threads where we discuss a boat's sinking or being abandoned or wrecked, or burning, and a certain number of people, usually the same ones, all pile on with derision about how stupid and incompetent the victim was -- I wonder if that is some kind of psychological validation of this attitude -- "horrible to sink, but the skipper was an idiot (his boat was unprepared/he used the wrong kind of sea cocks/etc etc etc), it could never happen to me."


I think this is a fundamentally unseamanlike attitude which ignores what real seaman like you know, namely: "after years of working on trawlers off the NZ coast I know how quick the sh*t can hit the fan."




None of this proves that everyone or anyone in particular absolutely must have a raft. It's an individual, risk evaluating, and cost-benefit balancing decision involving risks which are small, but with horrible consquences. Reasonable people might come out either way on questions like that. But for anyone who is tempted to do without a raft just because he thinks his boat can't burn or sink, although others do, or because he is much smarter than other skippers -- I would say -- cut that attitude out of the process and look realistically at the risks. No matter what an awesome skipper you are, no matter how awesome your boat is, you cannot ever be in full control of all of what happens at sea, and if the sh*t ever does hit your particular fan, it can happen in the twinkle of an eye.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Kenomac stop trolling and just buy the liferaft! I see you own two Oyster yachts so money is not the issue. Maybe you just want someone to blame after you have drowned a crew member?
I have a home built plywood yacht and have a liferaft onboard, along with every over piece of safety gear including wetsuits with built in PFDs
Mainly because we have two young kids onboard. Also our coastguard is a volunteer organisation here in Queensland so who knows how long a rescue might take?
I might be chicken but after years of working on trawlers of the NZ coast I know how quick the sh*t can hit the fan.
Cheers

Nothing constructive to add to the discussion?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Nothing constructive to add to the discussion?

His last sentence was very important. In fact, probably the most important thing anyone has said.

[kish]

If you need a liferaft, you may need it urgently for a catastrophic failiure.

There are many partially submerged containers lost off of ships out there.
Metal icebergs!

There are logs that have fallen off of barges.
Battering rams!

Finding either is akin to a lottery win, but that happens too.

I would imagine that an insurance claim would find this as a claim denying reason.

The proverb "for want of a nail comes to mind''"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

His last sentence was very important. In fact, probably the most important thing anyone has said.

This thread is about coastal cruising and most of the emotional responses seem to ignore the fact that we have a capable dinghy with a 15hp outboard hanging off the stern, ready to launch. Do you?

Also ignored is the that most coastal day cruisers don’t have life rafts onboard. I know when we kept our Hunter 450 in Long Beach harbor, I can’t remember seeing life rafts aboard more than a couple of yachts. So why is it that those folks who have a life raft, seem so emotionally charged that they feel as though everyone needs one? All we plan to do this season is basically, day hops from one sheltered anchorage to another in nice weather.

What do others have given the same situation? Leaving out the emotion... keeping in mind, with the exception of the life raft, we probably have more safety equipment aboard than 99% of the yachts out cruising, including.... an extensive fuel polishing system, survival suits and dry suits.

I’d like to hear more from the coastal crowd.

[jls095]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

This thread is about coastal cruising and most of the emotional responses seem to ignore the fact that we have a capable dinghy with a 15hp outboard hanging off the stern, ready to launch. Do you?

Also ignored is the that most coastal day cruisers don’t have life rafts onboard. I know when we kept our Hunter 450 in Long Beach harbor, I can’t remember seeing life rafts aboard more than a couple of yachts. So why is it that those folks who have a life raft, seem so emotionally charged that they feel as though everyone needs one? All we plan to do this season is basically, day hops from one sheltered anchorage to another in nice weather.

What do others have given the same situation? Leaving out the emotion... keeping in mind, with the exception of the life raft, we probably have more safety equipment aboard than 99% of the yachts out cruising, including.... an extensive fuel polishing system, survival suits and dry suits.

I’d like to hear more from the coastal crowd.

The longer this thread and the other go on, the more it seems like nothing anyone says will help you decide. Either that or it reads like you're looking for affirmation of not taking a raft. Ultimately that decision is yours and you will make it based on your own circumstances and risk values (neither of which us internet folk are privy to).

I'm located in Boston and have cruised downeast Maine, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador. I do not have davits, the dinghy is on the deck for overnighters. I chose to take a raft because it gives me another option if something catastrophic happens. I'm willing to pay a little (relatively speaking in boat terms) for having that option available. I'm a risk adverse person, so that's how my decision was made. Plus, the water is damn cold.

In all likelihood having the dinghy is fine for coastal, but in my own experience, and from reading about others, bad events tend to cascade in ways we would have never thought possible. Options and redundancy are a good thing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

This thread is about coastal cruising and most of the emotional responses seem to ignore the fact that we have a capable dinghy with a 15hp outboard hanging off the stern, ready to launch. Do you?

Also ignored is the that most coastal day cruisers don’t have life rafts onboard. I know when we kept our Hunter 450 in Long Beach harbor, I can’t remember seeing life rafts aboard more than a couple of yachts. So why is it that those folks who have a life raft, seem so emotionally charged that they feel as though everyone needs one? All we plan to do this season is basically, day hops from one sheltered anchorage to another in nice weather.

What do others have given the same situation? Leaving out the emotion... keeping in mind, with the exception of the life raft, we probably have more safety equipment aboard than 99% of the yachts out cruising, including.... an extensive fuel polishing system, survival suits and dry suits.

I’d like to hear more from the coastal crowd.

I completely agree with all of this, and I agree with the approach. A sober analysis of the risks, and cost-benefit, is what is needed, and not blind emotion. And only you can make this decision.



But this statement:


"after years of working on trawlers of the NZ coast I know how quick the sh*t can hit the fan."


Is not emotion. This is a statement of an extremely important fact -- that when things go wrong at sea, even in coastal waters, they often go wrong extremely quickly and without warning. This is an important antidote to the feeling of false invincibility which many sailors have just because they have never had an accident, or had a minor situation which they dealt with successfully. The gods hate hubris more than anything -- sailors have known this for thousands of years!!


I'm not telling you whether you need a raft or not -- only you can decide that. I cruised SW Florida and the Caribbean for 20 years without a raft, and never felt the need, and even knowing what I know now, I think it was a rational decision to do without. The cold water and remoteness of where you're going makes it more complicated, but that's your decision.

[Kenomac]

Dockhead,

If you had an emergency onboard which necessitated the use of a life raft when coastal cruising, most likely you’ll be along side a rocky shoreline with waves breaking against the rocks and the waves pushing you towards them... would you climb into your life raft? I have a personal example of someone who drifted into the rocks on a motorless dinghy three years ago and was killed.

Why is it that so many like yourself are so adamant about someone like me having an easy to deploy life raft, and yet you feel it’s safe to not have an easy to deploy dinghy with a substantial outboard motor attached to be used during a coastal disaster on your own boat? Seems hypocritical.

If you launched your life raft along the coast and climbed in, most likely you’d die, crushed against the rocks long before help arrived. Us on the other hand given the same situation, would motor safely to an anchorage or away from the coast to await rescue.

Remember, this thread is about “coastal cruising.” Many respondents seem to forget this fact or are ignoring it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Dockhead,

If you had an emergency onboard which necessitated the use of a life raft when coastal cruising, most likely you’ll be along side a rocky shoreline with waves breaking against the rocks and the waves pushing you towards them... would you climb into your life raft? I have a personal example of someone who drifted into the rocks on a motorless dinghy three years ago and was killed.

I agree. Life raft definitely no good for this case. I already wrote that in one of my previous posts above.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Why is it that so many like yourself are so adamant about someone like me having an easy to deploy life raft, and yet you feel it’s safe to not have an easy to deploy dinghy with a substantial outboard motor attached to be used during a coastal disaster on your own boat? Seems hypocritical.

Who's adamant? I think I specifically wrote:


"I'm not telling you whether you need a raft or not -- only you can decide that."


and:



"A sober analysis of the risks, and cost-benefit, is what is needed, and not blind emotion. And only you can make this decision."


And who's hypocritical? I keep my dinghy deflated and covered on deck on passage, but near rocky coasts, I inflate it, rig the motor, and put it in the davits. I've said all along that a life raft is not a solution to every emergency, and there are a number of situations where having ready use of the dinghy could save your life. At the same time, it's not an either/or situation -- having the dinghy ready doesn't exclude also having a raft.







There have been many intelligent, well-considered, and non-adamant responses in this thread.


Here is another really good one:

Originally Posted by jls095

. . . In all likelihood having the dinghy is fine for coastal, but in my own experience, and from reading about others, bad events tend to cascade in ways we would have never thought possible. Options and redundancy are a good thing.

Words to live by!!




This excellent, intelligent, and non-adamant post by JLS095 actually brings to mind the decision-making process which went on between Harland & Wolff and the White Star Line when the RMS Titanic was being designed. They did a similar cost-benefit analysis about life boats, and they came up with the decision that the Titanic was so well designed, so well provided with different safety equipment, and just so generally awesome that they didn't shrink from calling her "unsinkable", that they decided that the Titanic didn't really need life boats the way ordinary, more mortal ships did, and that a full contingent of life boats would be a waste of money, so they provided the vessel with boats adequate for less than half of the persons they expected to have on board.



Well, we know how that turned out -- in the event, the general awesomeness of the Titanic did not withstand the "cascade of bad events" in ways neither the designers of the ship, nor the owners, would have ever thought possible, with disastrous results.


So what I am saying is -- it's definitely right to do this analysis, and it is definitely right to question just blindly doing what other people do. You cannot eliminate every risk and it is useless to try. But in doing this analysis, be sure and pay due recognition to the kinds of things which happen to other boats, and which MIGHT happen to you. The phrase "it can't happen to me" should not exist in any sailor's vocabulary. Rather, "there but for the grace of God go I".

[fatherchronica]

Just one nitpicky question, if you needed to abandon your vessel, why would you most likely be off a rocky coastline.

[Almost-There]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Dockhead,



Why is it that so many like yourself are so adamant about someone like me having an easy to deploy life raft, and yet you feel it’s safe to not have an easy to deploy dinghy with a substantial outboard motor attached to be used during a coastal disaster on your own boat? Seems hypocritical.

If you launched your life raft along the coast and climbed in, most likely you’d die, crushed against the rocks long before help arrived. Us on the other hand given the same situation, would motor safely to an anchorage or away from the coast to await rescue.

Remember, this thread is about “coastal cruising.” Many respondents seem to forget this fact or are ignoring it.

As someone who has been in a situation where things went wrong in a hurry. I can assure you that in some situations you won't have time to deploy your dingy.

Yes there's times when the dingy would be a better choice. But when the SHTF there's a good chance the dingy won't be a viable option.

I've been on the water my whole life and I never would've thought I'd need a life raft on that run. Hell I used to make fun of and complain about dragging that ditch bag and raft along. That was up until we actually had to use it.

You mention coastal waters, well we were in busy coastal waters between the Chesapeake and Delaware bays. All things considered its a busy area year round yet it still took hours to be rescued. If we had been in the water I can't say for sure if I'd still be here. Chances of succumbing to hypothermia in that time were a real possibility.

Chances are you'll never need it but god help you if you find yourself needing one and not having it.

Honestly there's a lot of cases of people dying because they got in a raft. They jump ship too early and tragically their boats are still floating. So it's like anything else,you have to know when and how to properly use it. But that's not a reason to not carry one.

Anyway the choice is yours. But having grown up in a family of Coasties and commercial fishermen, I've heard and seen enough tragedies where even those with rafts didn't have time to deploy them.

[Olddan1943]

I'd rather be over-prepared than under-prepared

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

I'd rather be over-prepared than under-prepared

Very true. So do you have a fuel polishing system, interior fire hose and drysuits along with dinghy with outboard always ready to deploy?

Thanks for your contribution.