More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

[StuM]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

At the time of this post there would appear to be at least four 'pleasure vessels' flying code flag 'Lima' and at quarantine anchorage off Denarau and as yet unable to come alongside....

What makes you think they are flying the Lima flag?



Fiji quarantine regulations:
Quarantine Act


Quarantine Regulations Sect 12:


(5) All foreign vessels on entering a port in Fiji shall show one of the following signals until free pratique is granted—
(a) by day (i.e. between sunrise and sunset)—
(i) flag "Q" International signifying "my ship is healthy and I request free pratique"; or
(ii) flag "Q" International Code, over first substitute (QQ) signifying "my ship is suspect—that is to say, I have had a case or cases of infectious disease more than 5 days ago, or there has been unusual mortality among rats on board"; or
(iii) flag "Q" International Code over "L" flag, International Code (QL) signifying "my ship is infected, that is to say I have had a case or cases of infectious disease less than 5 days ago".
The signal flown by day shall be shown at the masthead or some other place where it can best be seen.
(b) by night—
A red light over a white light signifying "I have not received free pratique".
Such lights shall not be more than 6 feet apart and shall be placed in a vertical line one over the other and shall be shown at the peak or some other place where they can best be seen.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by StuM

What makes you think they are flying the Lima flag?



Fiji quarantine regulations:
Quarantine Act


Quarantine Regulations Sect 12:


(5) All foreign vessels on entering a port in Fiji shall show one of the following signals until free pratique is granted—
(a) by day (i.e. between sunrise and sunset)—
(i) flag "Q" International signifying "my ship is healthy and I request free pratique"; or
(ii) flag "Q" International Code, over first substitute (QQ) signifying "my ship is suspect—that is to say, I have had a case or cases of infectious disease more than 5 days ago, or there has been unusual mortality among rats on board"; or
(iii) flag "Q" International Code over "L" flag, International Code (QL) signifying "my ship is infected, that is to say I have had a case or cases of infectious disease less than 5 days ago".
The signal flown by day shall be shown at the masthead or some other place where it can best be seen.
(b) by night—
A red light over a white light signifying "I have not received free pratique".
Such lights shall not be more than 6 feet apart and shall be placed in a vertical line one over the other and shall be shown at the peak or some other place where they can best be seen.

Bullseye!!
You are so remarkably literal... oh well saves me doing the research..

So... that having arrived ... requested free pratique and had it denied... they are now quarantined ( this can be done either afloat or ashore... in this case afloat) . So at night red over white... by day it would appear under Fiji regs they would simply continue to fly 'Q'....

Whatever... they are in quarantine....

[StuM]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

hmm.
Mystery as Argentine sailors infected with virus after 35 days at sea.
https://flip.it/GaS130

As a guess:


"“It’s hard to establish how this crew was infected, considering that for 35 days, they had no contact with dry land and that supplies were only brought in from the port of Ushuaia,"

WHO:
"It is not certain how long the virus that causes COVID-19 survives on surfaces, but it seems likely to behave like other coronaviruses. A recent review of the survival of human coronaviruses on surfaces found large variability, ranging from 2 hours to 9 days (11)."

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

....If you read the Fiji Immigration Page you'll see several different ways of gaining admittance (which have changed several times over the past few days) .......

Reading how the Fijian VIP system works for air arrivals it would appear that once a yacht is 'in' the country they may have greater freedom than airborne tourists.. interesting...

AlanSmith... If you lived 3 miles as the crow flies from the Dahmer household you might be a little touchy as well....

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by StuM

As a guess:


"“It’s hard to establish how this crew was infected, considering that for 35 days, they had no contact with dry land and that supplies were only brought in from the port of Ushuaia,"

WHO:
"It is not certain how long the virus that causes COVID-19 survives on surfaces, but it seems likely to behave like other coronaviruses. A recent review of the survival of human coronaviruses on surfaces found large variability, ranging from 2 hours to 9 days (11)."

Interesting..
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1194281.shtml

and in plenglish

https://www.plenglish.com/index.php?...p-from-ecuador

Also said to have been an issue with salmon as well( don't want the gramma polis on my case )... presumably sourced from Chile....

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

..... In the absence of facts, I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt and assume they used a proper method that was acceptable to Fijian immigration.
..........

Why would you do that?

Past actions speak for future actions. If what has been posted upthread is correct, then his past actions show him (self confessed) to more of a rule bender/breaker than a rule follower. It follows then he is more likely to be intending to flout the rules in the future than follow the rules.

[ewishki]

bahahaha. This is exactly why almost all media is crap these days. Navy Blockade...ummm okay.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12345805

[Exile]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt and assume they used a proper method that was acceptable to Fijian immigration.

Originally Posted by Wotname

Why would you do that?

Maybe because we have yet to read any reports from the actual authorities in NZ, Tonga, Fiji or anywhere else that have claimed any violations or held them accountable? Or have we? (I could have missed it ). I really have no desire to make a case justifying their actions or not, but do find it ironic that people on public forums have vilified them more so than the actual countries who's laws have been purportedly violated.

I certainly agree with posts pointing out why it's so important to respect the rules & regs, and especially these days in the midst of the pandemic. The choices this and the other crews have opted to make would not be mine. But imho the attacks on this particular crew are overdone, and only gives credence to claims of stereotyping and bias. How many of you have actually even met them? From the little I've watched of their videos, they're frankly not exactly my cup of tea either, but so what? Maybe their vids are an accurate reflection on who they are or maybe it's a made-for-youTube persona. But again, who cares?

As for Minerva, I'm no expert in international law. But it seems reasonable that, one factor in adjudicating claims over contested territories may be which nation has more often asserted their claim, and/or has expended more resources in support of that claim. This may explain the apparent contradiction of Tonga (reportedly) denying access to Minerva Reef ahead of time (or at least in the absence of their patrol boat), but then (again reportedly) being most welcoming when Zatara requested permission to enter (when outside the 12-mile limit).

It's also reasonable that the presence of the patrol boat is required to deter over-harvesting of marine life, a longstanding problem which Ann I believe discussed in a previous post. In any event, I'm hard-pressed to figure out why the rationale would be a potential threat from Covid-19 when the reef is uninhabited and submerged except at low tide. Then again, maybe there have been prior incidents where the patrol boat has had to take crew from anchored boats onboard their own boat for whatever reason.

Either way, I think it might be best to wait and see if the authorities themselves report violations of their laws before we continue to so vociferously condemn this particular crew.

[alansmith]

Pinguino, I think Oteleo and I are okay now. I get his point. Btw, I live 3-4 drive from where the Donner Party,back in the 1800’s, got stuck in the heavy snows of the Sierra. Beautiful lake and very interesting story if you haven’t heard of it. They resorted to cannibalism to survive.

I have been affected by it personally. Every day I go to work I feel my job eats part of my brain. Snicker. I have so little left now that I can’t find the car keys some days. So I just call in sick.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

This would be opinion or a wild a** guess. No one has any information, other than anecdotal, on the discussions or arrangements that may have taken place between Zatara and Fijian customs. If you read the Fiji Immigration Page you'll see several different ways of gaining admittance (which have changed several times over the past few days) including a reference that "Any boat coming to Fiji will be carefully considered on a case-by-case basis". In the absence of facts, I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt and assume they used a proper method that was acceptable to Fijian immigration.


Ya, make sure you start denigrating people before all those pesky facts get in the way!

You've cherry picked the infomation ie"case by case" ,they havent followed correct procedures, I know this because I am dealing with a compulsory Fiji yacht agent and are filling out the forms. Latest rule update was on the 10th therefore there is no way they can abide by the rules if they left NZ before that. I dont give them the benefit of the doubt because I know exactly what the fiji government is asking of cruisers, I phone the agent to clarify as I organize my approval from this end.

I'm generally a "ask for forgiveness rather than permission " type of guy BUT we are in extraordinary circumstances right now, theres tension with some locals in the Pacific as they are scared, and these guys that are choosing to not follow the procedures are potentially making it hard for the rest of us cruisers.

Sometimes it's just better and respectful to come hat in hand, this is one of those times.

And for the record I entered French Polynesia while borders were closed BUT I went through all the proper channels and got permission and DPAM approval to do so, I didnt just rock up. It cost money and time but was the respectful and right way to do it.

[JPA Cate]

^^^^^

Thank you, Dale, for telling it like it is.

Am putting it in the thread, because the Thanks button doesn't seem to be working now.

Ann

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by daletournier

You've cherry picked the infomation ie"case by case" ,they havent followed correct procedures, I know this because I am dealing with a compulsory Fiji yacht agent and are filling out the forms. Latest rule update was on the 10th therefore there is no way they can abide by the rules if they left NZ before that. I dont give them the benefit of the doubt because I know exactly what the fiji government is asking of cruisers, I phone the agent to clarify as I organize my approval from this end.

I'm generally a "ask for forgiveness rather than permission " type of guy BUT we are in extraordinary circumstances right now, theres tension with some locals in the Pacific as they are scared, and these guys that are choosing to not follow the procedures are potentially making it hard for the rest of us cruisers.

Sometimes it's just better and respectful to come hat in hand, this is one of those times.

And for the record I entered French Polynesia while borders were closed BUT I went through all the proper channels and got permission and DPAM approval to do so, I didnt just rock up. It cost money and time but was the respectful and right way to do it.

Well said, Dale, and well done, too. A good example of how a good cruiser operates, and strikingly different than the Zatara methods.

Jim

[MicHughV]

I've been ploughing thru' this thread for the past hour and have to give the mods a ton of credit here for trying to keep this topic from erupting into WWIII.
Good job, mods !!

[alctel]

I'm astonished that they thought there was nothing worth sticking around for in NZ and instead launched back out into the pacific with a rather shaky plan. Some of my favourite sailing has been in in the winter seasons, a lot less boats around and you get to wear thick jumpers and be cozy

Mind you from the looks of it NZ wouldn't have been sorry to see him go, as he was being a bit of a prat.

[NevilleCat]

Yes, Ironically NZ has been back in business and out of lockdown since they left, with the only Covid cases (so far, fingers crossed) being returned travelers in quarantine, and the locals are taking advantage of the lack of international tourists to go and see their beautiful country without the crowds and with deals being offered of course.
My Mum has just returned home from her third or fourth boating tour of Fiordland; she always goes in winter as (bizarrely) it is better weather with more sunny days, more stable winds and sometimes less rain. Her photos seem to bear this out once again.
A spectacular part of the world (as with all Fjords take plenty of anchor rode and extra ropes to tie off).
I find it amusing that they thought there would be nothing to film in NZ,and the kids wouldn't benefit from at least a camper vanning trip around if they couldn't be bothered taking their boat. After all hundreds of thousands of tourists from all over the world usually seem to find something to see and do there!