More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by OloteleMtn

No, I am not confused; the "criticism" has been consistently rude, with assumptions as to their character, actions, intentions, effects, etc. As to why they came to post on the thread; i will not assume as to their reasons, but it makes sense that a member here told them of the controversy directly. I doubt it will add much to their view count or their financial bottom line.

Hardly consistent - they obviously have fans here and apologists, and others who can only make assumptions based on third-party information, as well as what Zatara has posted for the all the world to see. Now if we've misinterpreted that, the floor is theirs to correct it - we'd all like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

[Jim Cate]

There seems to be a faction here who don't understand the concept of how one vessel's bad behavior has a lingering effect on local populations and their later interactions with visiting yachts... and thus want to defend Zatara's and others behavior as inconsequential. Most of that faction have never been cruising in foreign waters themselves, and faced the consequences of prior bad behavior.

For those of us who have encountered this phenomenon, it's a real concern, and perhaps explains why we are concerned whilst others are not.

We have Zatara's own postings to attest to their behavior, but those coupled with media reports leave me believing that they have behaved poorly with respect to lockdown rules and arrival protocols. In these troubled times, careful attention to rules is a better practice than attempting to sidestep inconvenient requirements. And when rules are ignored, bragging about it on the internet amplifies the long term effects by encouraging others to follow suit, whether or not this is the intended result.

I'm not amused.

As to the folks in the Sollies... yes, going ashore at the YC to engage the authorities has long been the practice there, and in many other small ports of entry. However, the usual practice is for the skipper alone to do so, not the whole crew... and in Covid times, a bit of common sense would have perhaps suggested other methods of contact. The severity of the official response in this case suggests to me that we don't have the whole story. There may well have been unmentioned events that predisposed the authorities to severity.

Jim

[AKA-None]

Not having sailed the world but having worked and vacationed in a few places I’ve received the brunt of animosity due to others bridge burning.

[jstrru402]

judging a large group of people by the actions of a few within it is wrong in all circumstances.

I'm sure most of us here, especially in the current climate in the US, wouldn't hesitate to defend someone being discriminated against.

for some reason though, the big argument seems to be exactly the attitude that the crushing community is getting a bad rap due the actions of a few. yes, disagree with he actions of the few, but why aren't we calling out the discriminatory behavior of those who would judge YOU based on SVZ's actions?

someone in the thread even referenced sailors in the 1500s bringing disease to the South Pacific, which causes the population to look suspiciously upon white men to this day. imagine saying that same thing, out loud, in public, but swapping the ethnic groups...hmm, AIDS?

should we all paint with such broad brushes?

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

but why aren't we calling out the discriminatory behavior of those who would judge YOU based on SVZ's actions?

Do you mean from the countries that we're visiting and guests of, with their laws and regulations that we're subject to?

[Jim Cate]

for some reason though, the big argument seems to be exactly the attitude that the crushing community is getting a bad rap due the actions of a few. yes, disagree with he actions of the few, but why aren't we calling out the discriminatory behavior of those who would judge YOU based on SVZ's actions?

Why? BEcause it isn't discriminatory to protect your home island(s) against incursions from infected regions. It's a matter of life or death, and when there are rules set up to avoid introduction of contagion, and those rules are, or even seem to be abrogated, a strong reaction is justified.

And really, we don't get to tell the islanders how they should run their islands, so "calling out" any of their behavior is way out of bounds for us (the cruising community).

That seems pretty obvious to me!

Jim

[jstrru402]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Why? BEcause it isn't discriminatory to protect your home island(s) against incursions from infected regions. It's a matter of life or death, and when there are rules set up to avoid introduction of contagion, and those rules are, or even seem to be abrogated, a strong reaction is justified.

And really, we don't get to tell the islanders how they should run their islands, so "calling out" any of their behavior is way out of bounds for us (the cruising community).

That seems pretty obvious to me!

Jim

in this thread there have been numerous iterations or peoples anecdotes about being judged as cruisers rather than as an individual, covid notwithstanding. sorry, but I thought we were standing up to bias wherever we saw it. I guess not.

to be clear though...I'm not talking about the discrimination that SVZ may find. I'm talking about the potential for discrimination that a lot of others seem concerned about finding after the fact of SVZ's actions. I thought that was obvious... it was to me.

again, where else is ok to judge an entire minority group by the PAST actions of someone else?

[jstrru402]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

Do you mean from the countries that we're visiting and guests of, with their laws and regulations that we're subject to?

I'm not talking about anyone's laws or regulations. I'm talking about SVZ doing something perceived to be flouting the rules and YOU being prejudged for it down the road.

Where else in the world is that ok? Should it be? If not, are you not willing to stand up to all discrimination, or just some?

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Yes, I didn't check their tracking page (really not interested). The article was from 2 days prior, and last I saw on the matter the navy "allowed" them to anchor at the reef as long as the navy ship was on station.

According to Noonsite and OCC bulletins Fiji is starting to open with tight restrictions, one of which is being approved prior to landing. Entry is not guaranteed. And, news of misdeeds of a cruising yacht travels fast over the coconut telegraph.

If they can stay at sea for 6 months as he supposedly boasted...perhaps they can sail back to Texas.

Not interested, yet started a thread about them?

[confused]

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

I'm not talking about anyone's laws or regulations. I'm talking about SVZ doing something perceived to be flouting the rules and YOU being prejudged for it down the road.

Where else in the world is that ok? Should it be? If not, are you not willing to stand up to all discrimination, or just some?

It seems that you expect locals to always be welcoming regardless ie. so that we're not 'being prejudged for it down the road'

If you stuff it up for the rest of us by your actions, you expect us to come down on the locals for 'prejudging' those who follow?

Jim's post #242 tried to explain it to you, but unfortunately can't understand it for you.


Please, leave your sense of entitlement at home. To state the obvious, actions have consequences.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

I'm not talking about anyone's laws or regulations. I'm talking about SVZ doing something perceived to be flouting the rules and YOU being prejudged for it down the road.

Where else in the world is that ok? Should it be? If not, are you not willing to stand up to all discrimination, or just some?

Well, I guess that you should go cruising and see if your standing up to "discrimination" does you much good. It is not clear just how any cruising yottie can do this "standing up" that you so fervently endorse. When you arrive at some third world port, what do you suggest that one do? How do you "stand up" to eliminate the prejudice in the local population against cruisers which has been generated by misbehavior in previous visitors?

This sort of behavior may not be "OK" by your standards, but it does exist and it is IMO far beyond our control. Your concepts reek of inexperience in the real world of cruising and visiting in distant and unfamiliar societies.

Jim

[jstrru402]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

It seems that you expect locals to always be welcoming regardless ie. so that we're not 'being prejudged for it down the road'

If you stuff it up for the rest of us by your actions, you expect us to come down on the locals for 'prejudging' those who follow?

Jim's post #242 tried to explain it to you, but unfortunately can't understand it for you.


Please, leave your sense of entitlement at home. To state the obvious, actions have consequences.

my entitlement to not be judged by the actions of others? sure. please let me know who else you apply that logic to.

I don't expect you to do anything, let alone come down on anyone. I just thought it being 2020 and being hyper aware that we have to call out discrimination everywhere we see, more people would understand the importance of stamping out bias wherever it may be found. guess not.

[jstrru402]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, I guess that you should go cruising and see if your standing up to "discrimination" does you much good. It is not clear just how any cruising yottie can do this "standing up" that you so fervently endorse. When you arrive at some third world port, what do you suggest that one do? How do you "stand up" to eliminate the prejudice in the local population against cruisers which has been generated by misbehavior in previous visitors?

This sort of behavior may not be "OK" by your standards, but it does exist and it is IMO far beyond our control. Your concepts reek of inexperience in the real world of cruising and visiting in distant and unfamiliar societies.

Jim

oh, I get it. ive been discriminated against all my life. you'd think with such a global community as this one, when such discrimination is mentioned, at a minimum it wouldn't be glossed over as a mere fact of life and recognize it as the crime that it should be.

maybe in places like the South Pacific, where theres a decent sized cruising community, there could be some sort of organization that provides community outreach to let everyone know we're not all the same. the undertones make it seem as if some here believe the locals can't grasp the idea of discrimination, so maybe those people could take it upon themselves to educate the locals as well.

or better yet... don't spend your money in "third world ports" that would look at you the same as they did Spanish conquistadors 500 years ago (again, as mentioned by others).

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

judging a large group of people by the actions of a few within it is wrong in all circumstances.

I'm sure most of us here, especially in the current climate in the US, wouldn't hesitate to defend someone being discriminated against.

for some reason though, the big argument seems to be exactly the attitude that the crushing community is getting a bad rap due the actions of a few. yes, disagree with he actions of the few, but why aren't we calling out the discriminatory behavior of those who would judge YOU based on SVZ's actions?

someone in the thread even referenced sailors in the 1500s bringing disease to the South Pacific, which causes the population to look suspiciously upon white men to this day. imagine saying that same thing, out loud, in public, but swapping the ethnic groups...hmm, AIDS?

should we all paint with such broad brushes?

Hmm, its a fuzzy distinction between Pre judging (predjudice) and Statistacal profiling. Medical and engineering Sceinces and Insurance is based on this.

Yes it mightn't be right in our enlightened society, but it is human nature. Its a long developed behaviour, as a species, that has got us this far.

The heart of traveling is to 'experience' new cultures and ways of thinking. We can accept and respect these differences.

Or we can choose to not agree and with them. I cant see why people want to experience new cultures but dont accept them. But thats just my opinion.

I tend to think flouting a Nations rules, wanting to go to experience their culture/ weather etc. Is not in the spirit of being respectful

Im pretty sure most of us here agree that 'their sandpit, their rules' or 'when in Rome...'

Now to wheather or not this is the case I, like most of us here cant pass judgement.

Indeed I welcome hearing directly from them, their version.

However I would agree that from all they have said themselves, that most of us have questions we would like answered.

As has been mentioned here we all want to shine a good light on our sailing community. Not the least of which so those can come behind us can enjoy the same hospitality we have enjoyed.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

oh, I get it. ive been discriminated against all my life. you'd think with such a global community as this one, when such discrimination is mentioned, at a minimum it wouldn't be glossed over as a mere fact of life and recognize it as the crime that it should be.

maybe in places like the South Pacific, where theres a decent sized cruising community, there could be some sort of organization that provides community outreach to let everyone know we're not all the same. the undertones make it seem as if some here believe the locals can't grasp the idea of discrimination, so maybe those people could take it upon themselves to educate the locals as well.

Surely you are joking... aren't you?

I guess that it is not productive to continue this discussion if you are serious.

What most conscientious cruisers do is endeavor to behave well when in new places with strange to us cultures. We try to blend into the local culture without making waves, to help out where we can, and to leave behind a feeling that we've added to rather than subtracted from life in the village.

I've never attempted to "educate the locals" as to how they should behave. It has been more common that they have educated ME in how to behave... and I think that our village time in places like Fiji and Vanuatu has made better persons of us rather than the other way around. They have worked out how to get along far better than urban America seems to have and we've benefited from their wisdom. I don't think I'll be "educating" them.

Jim