Musk says Starlink will work on boats

[h20man]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

I've been waiting for Starlink on the boat, unfortunately it sounds like open-ocean use may be a ways off...



Still, could be useful at anchor or near coastal. Licensing in each country you visit may become an issue (I can't imagine China, Iran, or North Korea, for instance, would want a bunch of unmonitored internet terminals wandering around). Not that I really plan to visit those places, but even with Ham radio you're supposed to get a license as a visitor. Question will be do countries view this like cellphones or like ham in terms of allowing someone to bring in a radio transmitter? What will Starlink's responsibility be? Will they just refuse to allow a terminal to connect if it doesn't have a license for connection in the country of use? Lots of practical questions around implementation for travelers.

Unhindered communication is a problem for dictatorships...

Cuba



Cuba Satellite Phones and Satellite Internet Devices
Many electronics are forbidden in Cuba, including satellite phones. You cannot bring or ship a satellite phone into Cuba unless you have a permit from the Cuban Ministry of Informatics and Communications. Cuba restricts the use of satellite phones because they’re seen as tools for subversive purposes; being caught with one can lead to arrest, time in prison, or an espionage charge.

So... I presume the same problems shall be had for starlink in any 'restrictive' country....

[h20man]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Getting completely away from that paradigm will be the way to go. A well managed phased array antenna should be able to sense the relative vectors of strong signals and "aim" itself independantly of local GPS and heading data. That is how I would be looking to design a marine system. The antenna DOES NOT have to be aimed in a truly optimized phased array.

(not even taking into account accelerometers that can give you pitch and yaw information in real time, allowing hinting to tuning the phase array.

[Moontide]

The "public beta" is priced at $99/month for unlimited data plus $499 for the hardware (antenna, black box and router)

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by h20man

Unhindered communication is a problem for dictatorships...





So... I presume the same problems shall be had for starlink in any 'restrictive' country....

Open source antennae and receivers, anybody?

Radio receivers were forbidden to prisoners in German POW camps in WWII. So they built them and neglected to inform their guards about them, and kept up with the war news, anyway. I am sure plenty of Cuban hardware hackers have converted government approved radio and TV sets to receive broadcasts from Key West and Miami. Not to mention MW (AM broadcast) radio signals from hundreds of miles away at night. It's all about open technology vs closed source monopolization of design.Believe me, a suitable system could be engineered under the noses of a leftist or any other-ist dictatorship. The problem would be in operating the equipment undetected. If the government threw enough money and other resources into detecting and locating homebrewed stations, things could be made very difficult to operate, though far from impossible.

[h20man]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Open source antennae and receivers, anybody?

Radio receivers were forbidden to prisoners in German POW camps in WWII. So they built them and neglected to inform their guards about them, and kept up with the war news, anyway. I am sure plenty of Cuban hardware hackers have converted government approved radio and TV sets to receive broadcasts from Key West and Miami. Not to mention MW (AM broadcast) radio signals from hundreds of miles away at night. It's all about open technology vs closed source monopolization of design.Believe me, a suitable system could be engineered under the noses of a leftist or any other-ist dictatorship. The problem would be in operating the equipment undetected. If the government threw enough money and other resources into detecting and locating homebrewed stations, things could be made very difficult to operate, though far from impossible.

I am absolutely FOR unhindered communication. The issue is that even with open source, any transmitter can be a significant problem for the cruiser if/when the authorities decide/(become aware) of it. Just like having a bullet on board a boat in Mexico.


The things we take for granted, that are 'no big deal' can be a 'big stick' to be used against us by an authoritarian government.


As someone told me.... everyone violates the law in some way... they may not be aware of it... and ... when one wants to hit you.. a stick shall be found.


Just informing.. that even that sat phone that you have on board...could be a problem transiting Cuba.. China... etc..

[stubones99]

Originally Posted by Paul Reading

Do we know what the service is going to cost? Iridium Go is horrendously expensive and slow.

The cost once operational has not been announced yet. I would assume it would be competitive to existing options or there would be little reason to adopt it with no financial gain.

Currently, it is $500 up front and $100 a month, but they are offering service in northern latitudes, since that's their current highest satellite density area.

[maersi]

An antenna with a fluxgate compass and gps is not enough. The antenna also needs to know its orientation. It would need a built in inclinometer. the phased array would need to be aware that it was heeled to 25°. I have no details about the unit or the setup procedure. Maybe it does have a built in inclinometer, but would the information from that be combined with satellite position in real time or is it just for initial setup?
I also signed up for beta test as soon as I could, but as I'm in Europe, it will be a while before I am likely to be contacted.
In the pics posted by B23iL23, (the first I have seen) the antenna looks parabolic. I was expecting to see a flat box with Domino's printed on it ;-)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pitchondesign

Phased array antennas are steerable electronically and are fast. Adding an accelerator and an inclinometer (aleady in virtually all cell phones) can process boat movements and compensate the antenna. This should not be expensive hardware. No need for mechanical gimballs and such.

Pitch, roll, heave, ROT data is provided by most boat compasses now (all but the simplest fluxgates), and is already available on the N2K network. This is not a problem.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul Reading

Do we know what the service is going to cost? Iridium Go is horrendously expensive and slow.

What? $600 for hardware and $139/mo for unlimited data is "horrendously expensive"?



Starlink will be vastly faster, but I doubt it will be much cheaper.



Iridium Go is brilliant if you figure out how to work within the bandwidth limitations, and if you can accept what it can't do (transfer large files; browse the internet normally). I spent a summer in the Arctic with only Iridium Go and was able to do 90% of everything I needed to do.

[h20man]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Pitch, roll, heave, ROT data is provided by most boat compasses now (all but the simplest fluxgates), and is already available on the N2K network. This is not a problem.

Embedding a chip (this example is a chip and extra hardware: very cheap, retail £2.66 ) in the hardware gives faster access (to the information, rather then the delay of reading, putting on N2K Net... reading back.. and ... milliseconds have passed.) Best to put in on device... and .. even have a mechanical 3 gimbal arrangement to smooth things out....

[Jon Hacking]

To get the speeds that StarLink wants, they need to use beam antennas. Their phased array antenna can be steered in <5ms, which should be plenty fast enough for boats. The question is: do the User Terminals (UTs) have the instrumentation to know how a boat is moving in a seaway? First gen UTs may not.

The antenna can aim about +/-40 degrees off axis. The current antenna has motors as well, but they're very slow. Still, they may be able to take out the heel of a monohull.

Current pricing for the Beta is $500 for hardware & $100/mo for service. However, when you sign up, they ask where you are & then they put a beam on that "cell" 24x7. If you move from that cell, in theory they can track you & will put a beam on your new cell. However, at present, there's no low-bandwidth channel to tell the system "I'm here & I need service." Maybe they'll put one in, but for now you have to keep the system active if you move. Since it currently draws about 150W, that's close to 300Ah/day at 12v, which is a fair whack out of an energy budget for a boat on passage. Hopefully, later units will draw less power, &/or they'll develop a mechanism that won't require that we leave the UTs on all the time.

The first 700-ish birds were v1 & didn't have the laser coms between birds, but now they're launching v2 birds that do have sat-to-sat laser-com capability, & they're already deorbiting some of their v1 birds. I would expect them to have a viable mesh with ~1,000 birds, which should happen in about 5 months, since they're launching 60 at a time, 2x/month. (Iridium has a working mesh with only 66 birds.) That would give them true worldwide capability, including the middle of the ocean. In fact, since we'd have the whole beam to ourselves, our data-rate at sea could be higher than near land, where we'd have to share the beam.

The final constellation is supposed to be ~40,000 birds. They're not planning to service urban areas, as there would be too many wanting to share a beam, & the military doesn't want them having multiple beams on a cell. I'm hoping that 40K birds will be able to handle the world's rural traffic for a while.

[aqfishing]

At this point if you want internet at sea you will need an expensive gimbaled antenna to keep your link. Then you are also stuck with the horrendous data costs.

It would be nice to eliminate at least the expensive data for now, although a cheaper antenna would be a win win!

We use a 40 cm Intellian antenna on our 63ft fishing vessel. It was a performance bonus for the skipper so he could have sat tv at sea. We have had it for well over 10 years. We operate in very harsh conditions and it amazes me how the antenna keeps the signal with the way the boat rocks and rolls! 6m seas and 35kts - no problem!

Decent internet would be such a bonus to get good weather updates on a regular basis in the middle of nowhere! That on its own would improve safety for cruising yachts. Then there is the emergency comms aspect as well, be it you are in deep trouble or whether you just need help fixing something.

But full time internet to browse and update social media, play games...NO THANK YOU!!!

We plan to cruise in 6 years time when our boat comes out of charter, hopefully by then Starlink has ironed out the kinks and is worldwide and cheaper!!!

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

The first 700-ish birds were v1 & didn't have the laser coms between birds, but now they're launching v2 birds that do have sat-to-sat laser-com capability, & they're already deorbiting some of their v1 birds. I would expect them to have a viable mesh with ~1,000 birds, which should happen in about 5 months, since they're launching 60 at a time, 2x/month. (Iridium has a working mesh with only 66 birds.)

Keep in mind Iridium satellites are orbiting at around 800 km while Starlink is less than half that at around 350. Given the geometry of that, the number of satellites required for a mesh can't really be compared between the two.

[Franziska]

Just saw this. Interesting, it is an articulated antenna:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Itx_TUOKA

Wonder if the mechanism for that will last under marine conditions and semi constant movements.
Same for the metal, probably not 316...

Sounds like the dish might be heated to prevent snow & ice accumulation (I doubt its from radiation).
Guess if thats the case one could turn that off and safe some more power.

The speed he gets is great. Mind you thats with the 1st gen satellites.

[Franziska]

Maybe one of "us" has this unit too and is willing to take some pictures of the tilting mechanism?

I know, the guarantee, still :-) , some folks might be more interested in the details than the guarantee.

If it's not too complicated one could perhaps either waterproof it or rebuilt in 316 eventually.
Generally speaking and making the assumption that the basic mechanism stays the same even when the laser sats are up.

I understand that at the moment one seems not to be able to move such a unit to a much different location, as they still nerd a big ground station in the wider proximity.