My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

[NevisDog]

Not sure of the relevance of comparing cost a 45' boat in California with a 53' one in Italy. But I take the point of costs not being exponential, just more - a tad more than I can afford.

[daletournier]

As someone that has cruised and fitted out a 33ft sailboat(8 years) and has recently fitted out a 47ft for ocean cruising, I agree with the above.

Sails and rigging (I've done both) are the big difference, but how often do you do those? Insurance is also alot more BUT that's based on boat value, not boat size.

The other one that I've experienced is marinas! I just keep away from them now.

Other than the above I don't think the difference is that great.

I certainly don't agree with the 10% of boat value will be spent per year maintaining a vessel.

Age also comes into it, a smaller older boat can cost more to maintain than a newer big a boat... there's a number of variables.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I certainly don't agree with the 10% of boat value will be spent per year maintaining a vessel.

Age also comes into it, a smaller older boat can cost more to maintain than a newer big a boat... there's a number of variables.

Okay, I do. We have come close to the 10% of boat value several times in recent years following engine overhaul, new sails, new standing and running rigging and upgrading the electronics.

Some numbers, engine £2000, genoa and main Sail £2500, standing rigging £2000. Add in the other items like pumps, batteries and solar then the total does reach 10%. future major items include folding prop £1000 and a full cockpit enclosure (bimini) £2000.

However, as NevisDog points 10% of a smaller yacht is affordable.



Pete

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Okay, I do. We have come close to the 10% of boat value several times in recent years following engine overhaul, new sails, new standing and running rigging and upgrading the electronics.

Some numbers, engine £2000, genoa and main Sail £2500, standing rigging £2000. Add in the other items like pumps, batteries and solar then the total does reach 10%. future major items include folding prop £1000 and a full cockpit enclosure (bimini) £2000.

However, as NevisDog points 10% of a smaller yacht is affordable.



Pete

10% of my boat (depending on how it's priced) is 20k - 25k therefore 20k+ spent on maintaining my boat per year, hope this isn't right !..... according to this rule Ken must spend 40k+ each year on his boat.

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Okay, I do. We have come close to the 10% of boat value several times in recent years following engine overhaul, new sails, new standing and running rigging and upgrading the electronics.

Some numbers, engine £2000, genoa and main Sail £2500, standing rigging £2000. Add in the other items like pumps, batteries and solar then the total does reach 10%. future major items include folding prop £1000 and a full cockpit enclosure (bimini) £2000.

However, as NevisDog points 10% of a smaller yacht is affordable.



Pete

A lot of those sound more like upgrades than maintenance. Were your electronics broken when you replaced them? Do you need a folding prop? Did the boat come with a full cockpit enclosure when new from the yard? Etc.

Of course, I have spent more than the value of my boat in replacements in a year! I should stop buying cheap boats.

[TJ D]

I reckon that the 10% figure is probably correct for a certain size of boat. If you have a $10,000 older 28 footer, you will probably spend more than 10%, by a large margin. If you have a newish $300,000 50 footer, you'd be hard pressed to spend 10% year after year, unless you liked to buy new sails more often than you need to, or something along those line.

I think that the 'ordinary' maintenance, meaning replacing hoses, oil changes, a new pump here and there, etc, etc, really aren't that different across the board.

Heck, even engines aren't all that different. I haven't priced them lately, but a 40hp diesel installed won't cost all that much less than an 80hp.

On our boat, my big expenditures have been sails (bought just after we purchased the boat), standing rigging replacement, and we did get a little decadent and have the topsides professionally awlgiripped.

These 3 projects totaled up to about 50K. On a smaller boat (meaning something around 35-40'), it may have been more like 15-20k.

I view that as my 'big boat' penalty. We've now had the boat for 5 years, and all the other work we've done has been in line, both in cost and time spent with our previous, smaller boats.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by daletournier

10% of my boat (depending on how it's priced) is 20k - 25k therefore 20k+ spent on maintaining my boat per year, hope this isn't right !..... according to this rule Ken must spend 40k+ each year on his boat.

Even purchasing new jibs this year and including travel, we didn’t spend half that much.

It’s a bogus figure mostly thrown into the pot by the owners of smaller boats who extrapolate their proportionally higher operating costs onto larger size boats. Sure if someone has a 30 footer, all the items needing attention will be proportionally higher and more like 10%. Take a water pump for example costing $500, on a boat with a value of $50k that pump represents 1% of the boat value, but on a $500k boat, the same $500 pump only represents .1% of total value. As boats get larger, the annual expenses get proportionally smaller.

[Joli]

Figure an average of 1.5 to 2.5% of new replacement cost for annual maintenance, some years will be light, some will be heavy but over several years this is an accurate number for privately owned yachts not chartered. It makes no sense to look at the depreciated cost of a yacht. Who knows how far it has been depreciated or if it is out of fashion and can be had for a song or if the owner is desperate to sell or how much deferred maintenance awaits the next owner? Look at what your boat would cost new and multiply by .015 ~ .025 for an average spend.

A new Catalina 47 probably sells for $600k? Figure $9,000 to $15,000 on average.
A new Oyster 545 probably sells for $1,500k? Figure $22,500 to $37,500 on average

Eventually all boats require extensive work that is costly: Deck and topside paint, strip and peel the bottom and re-epoxy, new engine and generator, replace teak decks, new sails and running rigging, new refitted spar and standing rigging, new electronics, new electrical with batteries~ chargers~inverters... It all adds up.

The 10% number thrown about for what is paid for a boat is an arbitrary number. 10% of a brand new boat ready to go is not realistic, 10% of a clapped out boat bought for nothing but needing everything isn't realistic either.

Look at new replacement and your long term maintenance number can be found there.

[Kenomac]

If somebody spends $1.5 million on a new Oyster 545, there’s no way the same person is even going to spend $10k on maintenance during the first or second year of ownership. Think about it.... $1.5 million was just spent on all new, top shelf stuff and it’s covered under warranty.

$22k-$37k? Honestly, how do you people come up with this nonsense?

[daletournier]

This year has been expensive as I did a refit in preparation for planned circumnavigation.

I changed stuff that most likely would of been a fine for years. Rigging, sails etc. I did not hold back, and have spent approximately 40k usd. This includes large water maker, arch and solar panels (although it came with one, which I didn't like) $1000 in tools, the list is very big. Alot of these expenses, I'd say 90%, I would of still spent if the boat was 38ft ie water maker, solar power etc. I could of spent only 20% of total and definitely gone with less, but I chose to get the boat the way I wanted her. I even purchased a second smaller outboard because I've always wanted the option of big and small.

I budget approx 7k per year from here on over many years, this is based on my previous cruising. Engine has 1000hrs and alot of stuff is new. I do all the work myself. Some years will be more and some less. I expect to spend very little prior to arriving in Africa (12mths).

I conclude larger boats are more expensive but not close to as much as some assume. And it often comes down to the standard in which you maintain your boat.

[MV Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

If somebody spends $1.5 million on a new Oyster 545, there’s no way the same person is even going to spend $10k on maintenance during the first or second year of ownership. Think about it.... $1.5 million was just spent on all new, top shelf stuff and it’s covered under warranty.

$22k-$37k? Honestly, how do you people come up with this nonsense?

Ken,

That’s true if you consider only current year cash expenditure, but the picture is a little different if you set aside money to pay for future large expenses. On the Oyster 545, standing rigging replacement after 10 years would be $30k+, same for new sails, re-spraying the spars etc. It all adds up, but certainly not to 10% of the boat’s value.

Tom

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by thoreed

Ken,

That’s true if you consider only current year cash expenditure, but the picture is a little different if you set aside money to pay for future large expenses. On the Oyster 545, standing rigging replacement after 10 years would be $30k+, same for new sails, re-spraying the spars etc. It all adds up, but certainly not to 10% of the boat’s value.

Tom

That depends! I replaced the rigging myself on my 470, wire was 11mm and 10mm, wire and turnbuckles all replaced for under 7000k aud ($5,400 usd) . Quotes by riggers came in at 12k+ just for wire, they wanted to pull mast etc.

DIY saves you alot, just come up from replacing my maxprop anode underwater, no haul out expense.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

A lot of those sound more like upgrades than maintenance. Were your electronics broken when you replaced them? Do you need a folding prop? Did the boat come with a full cockpit enclosure when new from the yard? Etc.

Of course, I have spent more than the value of my boat in replacements in a year! I should stop buying cheap boats.

I think that is a fair comment, it is a mixture of upgrades and maintenance.

The electronics, depth, wind and speed were the old Stowe type instruments and gave what can only be described as false information, in fact they just lied. Replaced with ST60s. New Raymarine and Garmin GPSs plus AIS also added.

The folding prop is interesting and worth 1/2 a knot on all points of sail. I am keeping a sharp eye on ebay just waiting for the right size and price prop to turn up.

The sprayhood and side dodgers were replaced when we bought the boat and will need replacing again shortly. 10 years in a UK climate is probably as good as it gets so full cockpit replacement will add another room in inclement weather.

Together with £150-£200 worth of antifoul paint and the same for the lift out plus minor items each year probably does equal 10% for a 31ft yacht.

Pete

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thoreed

Ken,

That’s true if you consider only current year cash expenditure, but the picture is a little different if you set aside money to pay for future large expenses. On the Oyster 545, standing rigging replacement after 10 years would be $30k+, same for new sails, re-spraying the spars etc. It all adds up, but certainly not to 10% of the boat’s value.

Tom

Sure, and if anyone is interested in actually making long term planning of the expenses of boat ownership, then it's important to keep this in mind.

Just like with a building, there are different categories of expenses:

Just expenses (berthing, fuel, insurance, etc.)

Maintenance (oil changes, antifouling, hull polishing, etc.)

Depreciation; reserve for replacement (sails, deck, rigging, machinery, pumps, upholstery, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.)


The last thing is the really tricky one, and in fact it's the really big ticket item. You can go for years without replacing anything, but that doesn't mean that the time for replacement is not creeping up on you year after year, relentlessly.

A building has inherent value (going to the value of the land), but boats do not. So the stuff on a boat which gets depreciated is a bigger proportion of the value, and this expense doesn't ever get buried in increasing value like it can with a building. I own rental properties which I bought in my '20's (one of the smart things I did in my life). Periodically they need renovation. I just refinance them, take out part of the equity which was built up over the previous years, and voila, the clock is reset. Can't do that with a boat!

Expenses and maintenance are not closely related to size, as different people in this thread have .

But the depreciation IS related to the original cost of the boat (probably not at all to what you paid for a used one). Somewhat at least. What it is much more closely related to , what it IS, is the cost of all the system which need replacement divided by their useful lives.

So if you're managing your costs carefully (I don't, but I guess that we have plenty of people on here who are either more methodical than I am, or are retired and managing a limited income), it makes a lot of sense to calculate this and monitor whether you're keeping up with it, or not (this is the way it's done by professional managers of commercial real estate, manufacturing plants, etc.). Possibly set aside some money for the big things (sails, rigging, repowering) which don't need replacement very often. It's good management to replace things on a schedule, so that the boat stays in good condition, and you don't have a lot of replacements all in one year.

I am not such a careful manager of all of this because I'm not retired, don't earn the same amount of money ever year, and just plan to do the big stuff in years when I have more money. Crude but effective, as long as I actually HAVE good years .

I don't think about repowering, because I'm pretty sure the engine in my boat would outlast me even if I don't sell my boat. The biggest item of depreciation on my boat by far is sails and rigging -- they cost a lot and don't last all that long. I have spent $60k-- $70k already so far in 8 years, and I would have this expense at least again every 10 years if not sooner, so that's say $7,000 per year if not more. After that, teak decks -- $25 000 or $30 000 every 20 years or so -- maybe $1 500 per year. Canvas. Dinghy -- $5 000 every 8 years or so. Electrical equipment, domestic systems, upholstery -- it goes on and on and on.

It's certainly not 10% of the original cost of my boat, but it does add up. If you don't replace anything this year, you will have to replace it next year, or the year after. Or, if you plan to sell the boat, you just gradually let it go, and let the next owner deal with it. Against my instincts, but this is probably economically rational, and the value of used boats does not fully reflect the state of the systems -- the market likes what you can see, and discounts everything you can't see.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sure, and if anyone is interested in actually making long term planning of the expenses of boat ownership, then it's important to keep this in mind.

Just like with a building, there are different categories of expenses:

Just expenses (berthing, fuel, insurance, etc.)

Maintenance (oil changes, antifouling, hull polishing, etc.)

Depreciation; reserve for replacement (sails, deck, rigging, machinery, pumps, upholstery, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.)


The last thing is the really tricky one, and in fact it's the really big ticket item. You can go for years without replacing anything, but that doesn't mean that the time for replacement is not creeping up on you year after year, relentlessly.

A building has inherent value (going to the value of the land), but boats do not. So the stuff on a boat which gets depreciated is a bigger proportion of the value, and this expense doesn't ever get buried in increasing value like it can with a building. I own rental properties which I bought in my '20's (one of the smart things I did in my life). Periodically they need renovation. I just refinance them, take out part of the equity which was built up over the previous years, and voila, the clock is reset. Can't do that with a boat!

Expenses and maintenance are not closely related to size, as different people in this thread have .

But the depreciation IS related to the original cost of the boat (probably not at all to what you paid for a used one). Somewhat at least. What it is much more closely related to , what it IS, is the cost of all the system which need replacement divided by their useful lives.

So if you're managing your costs carefully (I don't, but I guess that we have plenty of people on here who are either more methodical than I am, or are retired and managing a limited income), it makes a lot of sense to calculate this and monitor whether you're keeping up with it, or not (this is the way it's done by professional managers of commercial real estate, manufacturing plants, etc.). Possibly set aside some money for the big things (sails, rigging, repowering) which don't need replacement very often. It's good management to replace things on a schedule, so that the boat stays in good condition, and you don't have a lot of replacements all in one year.

I am not such a careful manager of all of this because I'm not retired, don't earn the same amount of money ever year, and just plan to do the big stuff in years when I have more money. Crude but effective, as long as I actually HAVE good years .

I don't think about repowering, because I'm pretty sure the engine in my boat would outlast me even if I don't sell my boat. The biggest item of depreciation on my boat by far is sails and rigging -- they cost a lot and don't last all that long. I have spent $60k-- $70k already so far in 8 years, and I would have this expense at least again every 10 years if not sooner, so that's say $7,000 per year if not more. After that, teak decks -- $25 000 or $30 000 every 20 years or so -- maybe $1 500 per year. Canvas. Dinghy -- $5 000 every 8 years or so. Electrical equipment, domestic systems, upholstery -- it goes on and on and on.

It's certainly not 10% of the original cost of my boat, but it does add up. If you don't replace anything this year, you will have to replace it next year, or the year after. Or, if you plan to sell the boat, you just gradually let it go, and let the next owner deal with it. Against my instincts, but this is probably economically rational, and the value of used boats does not fully reflect the state of the systems -- the market likes what you can see, and discounts everything you can't see.

Hi Dockhead, 60-70k in eight years on sailing and rigging! That's not normal in the cruising world. I've got friends on an Amel, and similar size to you, they've been cruising 17 years, and will complete their circumnavigation in the next eight mths, I know for a fact they have not spent that sort of money on sails and rigging. Rigging done once and one set of new sails.
If my rigging and sails are going to cost me that much, then I'm selling and buying a power boat.