Need Input from Boat Selling Experts!

[SeaKing]

Sean, it took a year and a half to sell our 1st cat. Only sold 6 weeks ago. We have been two cat owners for that time. We had one guy come from Alaksa and had the boat surveyed . We of course had a negotiated price, but after the surveyor found a long list of things the guy wanted to "low ball" us. I told "Alaska" to forget it, we waited another six months and got very close to the price "Alaska " had first offered us but from someone else.

I used Alaska's survey to show me what I need to do. Having a copy of the survey in hand I took care of alot of the small issues. Some of the items were , microwave not secured, cockpit radio didn't work (did when breaker was turned on), no GFI outlet, etc. The major items, were a couple of blister areas found on the keels, fist size. And one of the rudders showed moisture,The survey was lengthy and the list was long but I had a low price already to reflect the older, basic boat it was.

The new buyer knew I had a recent survey, I told him of the issues and we agreed to an as is price. I let him read the reccomendations of the survey and told him what items I had repaired, but did not give him the entire survey.

So use the survey to your advantage (I assume you have or can get it) and be ready if he comes back to "renegotiate". Have estimates for the repairs, he will. And in the mean time take care of the ones you can. Usually a survey will show the "appraised value" that gives you a good point to negotiate from.

Best of Luck and Hang in there.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Although paint blisters can be considered purely cosmetic, blisters involving one or more layers of laminate can lead to rather rapid loss of the structural strength of a vessel's laminate depending on number of blisters and layers of laminate involved.

All of the various polyester-based fiberglass resins are subject to deterioration by hydrolysis. For hydrolysis to occur, water as liquid or vapor must be present. In the hydrolysis reaction, water molecules break up the resin molecules, leaving an organic acid of varying acidity, depending on the particular resin, and a mixture of molecules of water, alcohols, and glycols. After a period of time, only the heavier alcohols and the glycol will remain (resin depletion).

After hydrolysis, the new molecules have some mobility and also occupy a greater volume than the polyester molecules from which they came. The result is internal pressure, which can be the precursor to blistering, delamination, increased flexinility and structural failure.

A relavant quotataion for blisters and such, possibly not to this case. We have no blisters. We have voids in the gel coat with crazing, which allows water to seep into the voids through the cracks - when the cracks pass directly over a void. There is no hydrolysis taking place and no osmosis. No water has entered the fiberglass hull. It's just sitting in pools in spots where there are voids in the original gel coat's application.

Did you mean to bold the section saying "blisters involving one or more layers of laminate can lead to rather rapid loss of the structural strength" to emphasize that the blister would have to be in the layer of laminate, which in this case it isn't? Not sure what this quotation was supposed to say/mean... can you clarify?

As we all know, gel coat is a cosmetic treatment applied to "finish" fiberglass and make it look all pretty and yacht-like. There are a large number of commercial vessels (several right here in the harbor I'm in) that are fiberglass without any gel coat since they aren't interested in looking all fancy. Some at 20 years old. Paint works equally as well to make the exterior the color you like it. It just isn't as fair and pretty. Gel coat is there to smooth the rough fiberglass and give it a real shiny and fair appearance.

So... still struggling to understand this info you put up... any clarification or interpretation to apply it to the situation at hand?

[ssullivan]

Thanks for the advice and sharing the experience you had. It is a long road selling boats... ugh.

Interestingly, I have taken such care of this boat there were only two negatives on the survey. First, this problem with the water entrapment behind the gel coat. Second, I have to tighten the steering cables.

That's it. All other plumbing, electrical, engine (surveyor was a former diesel mechanic) everything else... all checked out in "above average" condition.

Originally Posted by SeaKing

Sean, it took a year and a half to sell our 1st cat. Only sold 6 weeks ago. We have been two cat owners for that time. We had one guy come from Alaksa and had the boat surveyed . We of course had a negotiated price, but after the surveyor found a long list of things the guy wanted to "low ball" us. I told "Alaska" to forget it, we waited another six months and got very close to the price "Alaska " had first offered us but from someone else.

I used Alaska's survey to show me what I need to do. Having a copy of the survey in hand I took care of alot of the small issues. Some of the items were , microwave not secured, cockpit radio didn't work (did when breaker was turned on), no GFI outlet, etc. The major items, were a couple of blister areas found on the keels, fist size. And one of the rudders showed moisture,The survey was lengthy and the list was long but I had a low price already to reflect the older, basic boat it was.

The new buyer knew I had a recent survey, I told him of the issues and we agreed to an as is price. I let him read the reccomendations of the survey and told him what items I had repaired, but did not give him the entire survey.

So use the survey to your advantage (I assume you have or can get it) and be ready if he comes back to "renegotiate". Have estimates for the repairs, he will. And in the mean time take care of the ones you can. Usually a survey will show the "appraised value" that gives you a good point to negotiate from.

Best of Luck and Hang in there.

[little boat]

a google search of gulfstar delamination:
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietri...lGulfstar.html
has alot of info about water intrusion, this in particular that sounds like your description:
We bought our GS 39 new in '81 (hull #23) and kept it in Florida for two years, Lake Lanier outside Atlanta for four years and in Puget Sound since '87. When we pulled it out of the lake in '87 we had extensive blistering - many dozens up to the size of a quarter. The Seattle yard did a sandblast job (before the "peeler") which disclosed a poor bond between the outer and next layers of glass on the starboard side (only). Core sampling all around showed good lay-up otherwise. The fix was to grind off the starboard outer layer from waterline to keel, bow to stern, and re-glass. After a total of four months out of the water, the moisture meter showed everything to be nice and dry. Interprotect epoxy fairing and sealer followed. About $14K in '87 dollars - probably twice that today. No blisters since. We haul and paint the bottom every other year in this cool water.

The only clue (after the fact) that we had to the poor lay-up was some gelcoat fracturing (web-like) in the forward starboard area, apparently because of the poor bond during lay-up. Surveyor said it was "over rosinated."

I chalk it up to "luck of the draw" as opposed to anything I've heard over the last twenty years about general Gulfstar quality.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by little boat

About $14K in '87 dollars - probably twice that today. No blisters since.

If this is the case, I'm dead... as in homeless if I sell the boat. I don't have the $14K nevermind $30K for this kind of thing. This could prove to be a disaster. I would say we have run into a life changing event here.

I'm nearly at wit's end today with this. We were selling because we can't afford the boat. Now, with this problem, we are looking at being homeless if we sell and can't recover our equity.

Have they ever done a study on how many people who "just go now" become homeless?

We have no family and nobody to turn to for help.

I'm damn scared...

[scallywag]

Sean,
When we boght our boat, the surveyor said that there were voids on the deck. He suggested drilling a hole and injecting it with epoxy. Then using gel coat cover the hole. I bought epoxy to place on the boards that I was replacing. Here in Florida it dried fast. The can stated not to use above 85 degrees. I am mentioning the temperature and kick time because I do not know how the epoxy would ever be injected. I do know that when I placed the very runny epoxy(like varnish) around the mast, it stopped the leak caused by rain.

Maybe one of your close friends on this site could give you non public advice and help you with some financial solutions to your dilemma.

John

[slomotion]

Sean,

I think this is most likely yet another opportunity for self help, but you need to find out exactly what is going on with this hull.

I’m inclined to agree with Alan (I’m sure he and many, many others have more experience than I do). But, if you do not have blisters and these ‘cracks’ are the typical kind of crazing/spiderwebbing you often see in gelcoat, then I am skeptical of the surveyor’s claims that there is water present. The surveyor gets a water meter reading (interpretation is definitely an art) and a different sound when he taps in a certain area. Obviously, the first thing you need to do when this happens is find out what’s on the other side of the hull - structural member? Built-in water tank? Or, more likely, can’t tell because there are interior structures, etc. in the way. I never before heard of a surveyor sanding off enough bottom paint to reveal a crack extending the full length of the boat. This guy is either very good or very bad - either way he is ‘unusual.’ I admit that the presence of a ‘crack’ in an area where he gets funny sounds/readings is suspicious, But....

As I understand it, there are two kinds of voids:

1. Spot failure of glass to adhere to cored material. This is very common in cored decks and gelcoat crazing will not usually allow water to enter unless the void is in a stressed area like a stantion or some place you typically walk such that the crazing becomes a ‘real’ crack in the glass.

2. Spot failure of one layer of glass to adhere to another. Maybe it’s different for something continually immersed in water, but if the cracks are not visible through the bottom paint even after pressure washing, then I don’t think you are likely to get water intrusion. Blisters or delamination caused by resin failure or materials breakdown are different from voids which presumably existed from the time of manufacture. Voids will sound different when tapped, but that doesn't mean there is water in them and they are usually harmless. I suppose you could have defective gelcoat, but I would expect that would manifest itself in the form of ‘paint’ blisters and do so long before this point in your boat’s life. And in any case, gelcoat failure alone should not cause water to be present.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

... We have no family and nobody to turn to for help. ...
... Baby boomers I know (in my personal sphere) AVERAGE an ownership of 1.7 houses each. My mother owns 3!! How many do I have? 0 ...

Estranged ?

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Estranged ?

If you must know, Yes.


Estranged Mom who owns an 80 acre horse farm with half a dozen horses, sold a successful real estate company, started another real estate company catering to high end folks who want to do some "gentleman farming" or horse breeding, owns another house in her same town and a beach home.

Did I mention she got half her first home paid for by my father's mother, giving her a head start in life? Did I mention she managed the assets of my granparents when they got ill and still manages those assets now that they are deceased? Did I mention she got startup capital from her father to start her real estate company? Did I mention her gobs of money haven't come down hill other than food and clothing when I was a kid?

A sore spot to say the least... but that's another story for a different kind of forum.

This problem with the gel coat and/or blistering or whatever it is is vexing. Going by slomotions analysis, I do have water inside the void or area behind the gel coat, more so today that it is raining! Haven't figure that one out. There are many of these spots around the underside of the hull. I have cracks running to and fro in a lot of places, mostly on the starboard side. Behind some of these, the gelcoat is very thin in small areas approx 1cm and smaller. You can push on the gel coat and it gives in these spots. No water comes spraying out and it is not raised. The water is simply back there with no pressure, so I wouldn't think osmosis took place. This is a complete mystery to me. I'm baffled.

Based on slomotion's analysis, it seems like #2, but I'm not sure...

[scallywag]

Sean,
I have a space between the headliner and the deck. I wonder if yours was made in two pieces, an inner piece and the hull? Ribs going down the sides and along the bottom (latitudinal and horizonal stringers)give the boat strength and the interior shell was just popped in place. I remember seeing advertisements in boating magazines years back showing the hull structure. A deck leak would allow the water to seep to the bottom. My deck leak found its way through a vent in the overhead and dripped in the shower. I thought it was coming from the dorade but when I sealed around the mast the leak stopped.
John

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

If this is the case, I'm dead... as in homeless if I sell the boat. I don't have the $14K nevermind $30K for this kind of thing. This could prove to be a disaster. I would say we have run into a life changing event here.

I'm nearly at wit's end today with this. We were selling because we can't afford the boat. Now, with this problem, we are looking at being homeless if we sell and can't recover our equity.

Have they ever done a study on how many people who "just go now" become homeless?

We have no family and nobody to turn to for help.

I'm damn scared...

Sean, move to Australia. I'm serious - there is a desperate shortage of skilled labour over here - in the mining areas you could earn a fortune. If you moved to somewhere like Mackay, you could live aboard on the marina (house prices have skyrocketed there), and earn more than enough to pay off the boat. In WA truck drivers for mining companies are getting well over $100k a year. Unemployment here is around 4%, and I doubt if many of them are seriously looking for work.

If you still wanted to sell your boat, I think you would get a much better price for it over here.

Australia is readily accepting skilled migrants. At least look into it?

[N.M.I.ke]

Been awhile since I took the class, and I know the laws were reformed a few years ago, but you may want to talk to a lawyer who specializes in Bankruptcy (or receivership if you still operate your bed and breakfast).

I don't know the rest of your personal financial situation, but talk to a lawyer. You may be able to keep your home (even though it floats) and discharge most or all of your other bills. I don't know if its possible but I do know that, were I in your situation, I would at least check out all my options.

If you got rid of the rest of your debt, could you manage the note on the boat?

Maybe getting a fresh start, paying off the note and moving to greener pastures (bluer waters, whatever) is a good idea.

Again, I'm not giving you any legal advice other than "talk to a lawyer licensed in your area" but this is a topic you and the Mrs. may want to consider.

[hellosailor]

Sean, I would resist the urge to panic until you can get some information from professional sources (i.e. in the fiberglass or resin business) about this whole question of the gel-coat cracking. I've often head of gelcoat cracking, simply because it does not flex the same way that the underlying FRP does. But NEVER heard of someone saying the gelcoat was pulling away in huge sections from the FRP, the way "your" surveyor is saying. NEVER head of voids like that, between the gelcoat and FRP.
In your position I would want to research this on the phone with some pros in the business, and then maybe get a second surveyor to come give you an opinion about this IF the pros say there is such a problem.
Heck, there are enough top-class boatbuilders left in Maine so that I'd bet you could drive up to one, explain your dilemna, and pick some professional brains in person for the price of buying them lunch or even coffee. There's a lot of old fashioned gentlemen still left up that way.

IF it proves to be a problem, then we move on to figuring out how to best get you out of it. But since the boat isn't on fire, and the dragon isn't nesting on the mast truck, first take a slow deep breath, and get some professional input.

[Auspicious]

Sean,

Flipping assets is always expensive. If you're in financial trouble, big changes will take a long time to pay back.

The Gulfstar B&B idea hasn't worked out. Okay. Selling the boat and starting over may be emotionally satisfying, but I think (my opinion) that some effort may find a better return by working to keep it than selling it and buying something else.

Good luck man.

dave

[brian and clare]

Hi, Just wanted to chime in because so seem so bummed out about this. There is a good article by david pascoe that will cheer you up on his website. Its no big deal! You are probably better off than most old boat owners with real blister problems. Plus I dont think you even have real blisters.

I dont speculate why it happens, but on two boats I have seen (Owned by friends I was helping out with in the yard, and one other) you could actually peel the gelcoat off from the first layer of laminate like the skin off an orange, and there was water inbetween the gelcoat and the glass. Gelcoat was not brittle though, more kind of plasticy, but also cracked in spots. Behind it was water, not acid, or the brownish goop that glass turns into when it is eaten by the acid, just plain ol water. The first real layer of glass under the gelcoat was just peachy and clean of any blisters.

From what Alan says it shouldn't happen I guess, but maybe the builders went to lunch and left the gelcoat with a bunch of dust stuck in it or something? Angry low paid workers peeing on your gelcoatl? ) Who knows? I guess it doesnt really matter why, but I have witnessed what you seem to describe.

Anyway, Its just gelcoat by g-d, anyone that would tell you your boat has lost its value because of bad underwater gelcoat is just loopy.

If it was me, I would haul the boat, get a big 10 inch padded disk sander and some 60 grit, and spend a long few days getting rid of the loose stuff (dull thud). Be carefull with the big boy sander cause you could sand through the hull if you arent gentile. You can shape oak in a hearbeat with that setup, so be careful. If you are chicken of the big guns, you can use the spinning round random orbitals which are much faster than the square ones, but still feel like forever after lifting that weight over your head for a while. Best setup for a big job is air powered tools, allegedly lighter and real torquey so you dont buurn out motors all the time. That is what I have seen pro yards like Meryl Stevens use on megayachts. Looked a lot easier than what we were slaving away with on the schooner. Not too pricey I think, and a lot less weight to lift over your head. Sell the rig on e-bay when you are done?

Fill and fair where the gelcoat used to be and barrier coat it all. Check with west to see what to use below the waterline. As I recall they do not recommend microballoons cause of water intrusion, but that have a medium hardness. Now add the line to your advert that says bottom job just done with new barrier coat, and add that to your price including labour time for yourself. Now you've made money on your time!

Compared to renovating the rest of the boat (as you seem to have done) its just monkey work. Hell if I was where you are I would give you a hand myself (for a few dozen beers of course ;0) If your broker is crying blisters find another broker cause that is bunk. Wear a respirator. Its all really bad for you to be sucking down, but you probably know that.


Good luck and good cheer!

PS Nice boat - if its really not woth anything anymore (bah!), Ive got some magic beans here to trade.....