Negotiating Advice - Used Cruiser

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Any surveyor who allows his report to be "tweeked" is an unethical weakling.

Boat poker - I seem to recall you are a Surveyor. Is it customary in some places to put a hard time restriction on a sea trial. And is it customary to limit the sea trial to engine only, not sails if so equipped? In your opinion, how much latitude does the buyer have to define the sea trial (within reason, of course)? Would be very interested in your candor.

Peter

[BrownBear]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

BrownBear - others will chime in on how to best determine condition of sails, winches, and running rigging. My sense is that you get to define what is an acceptable sea trial for your purposes. If you're comfortable with 45 minutes (I would not be), great. But you should have some latitude on whether you move forward with the boat based on your experience in the sea trial. If you have any trepidation, do not move forward.

Doesn't sound like a good start to me, but maybe local custom wherever you are is different. I'll be interested how this thread develops.

Good luck

Peter

Thanks Peter again for your comments. I was posting as you were but as I just mentioned they aren’t even going to hoist the sails. They stated that hey didn’t want to abuse the boat. I explained that I’m not trying to break the boat but if I’m spending around 2k to splash in and have her surveyed I expect more than that. The price point on this boat is 150k. Tbh I expected at least 4-5 hours on the water testing all the winches, running rigging, engines, electronics, etc.. however I haven’t bought a yacht before so I don’t know what is and what isn’t typical but I don’t think I would buy a 15k sailboat without sailing her

[mvweebles]

Personally, I'd recommend a polite but firm position. Something along the lines of "this is a big investment for me. I need to make sure it's the right fit. My apologies if I'm requesting something that isn't customary, but I really need to spend more time and have a more comprehensive sea trial in order for me to consider removing a contingency for sea trial. I hope you understand, but I'm quite firm."

I hope Boat poker responds. I'd be interested in a knowledgeable industry opinion, though surveyors don't always accompany on sea trials.

Peter

[mvweebles]

BTW - if they're concerned about stressing the boat, wide-open-throttle for 5 continuous minutes probably won't set well with them. Do not touch the helm, the seller should provide a representative, usually the selling broker

Do you have a trusted advisor with you? What's the best advice you're getting?

[BrownBear]

I did take a polite but firm position stating pretty much just that. The surveyor also called me and stated he had plenty to do (as a contractor when someone changes something last minute it negatively effects the books) and not to feel bad about pushing the survey off. He also stated that the broker / owner should have had the sails put in and understood my hesitancy. It just seems very odd to me that we would not sail a sailboat? I’m not looking for a cruise but I would like to see how the main hoists and the jib furls. See the electric winches in operation under load, etc.

Some have commented that a 45 minute test is fine and perhaps so but I just can’t see how we check out all the systems in that duration.

[BrownBear]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

BTW - if they're concerned about stressing the boat, wide-open-throttle for 5 continuous minutes probably won't set well with them. Do not touch the helm, the seller should provide a representative, usually the selling broker

Do you have a trusted advisor with you? What's the best advice you're getting?

I do not have an advisor and the surveyor was recommended by the broker. If I continue to move forward I am most likely going to find a different surveyor only because so many people have stated to not go with one recommended by the broker. However he did have very positive feedback on this forum and having talked to him a few times I don’t think that he would be biased.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by BrownBear

I did take a polite but firm position stating pretty much just that. The surveyor also called me and stated he had plenty to do (as a contractor when someone changes something last minute it negatively effects the books) and not to feel bad about pushing the survey off. He also stated that the broker / owner should have had the sails put in and understood my hesitancy. It just seems very odd to me that we would not sail a sailboat? I’m not looking for a cruise but I would like to see how the main hoists and the jib furls. See the electric winches in operation under load, etc.

Some have commented that a 45 minute test is fine and perhaps so but I just can’t see how we check out all the systems in that duration.

I agree wholeheartedly, if you don't want to pass on this prospective boat then suggest to the broker that the costs to replace the standing rigging and sails be factored into the price, apparently they are not serviceable.

[sailingabe41ds]

Hi...

It is a sailboat...right? I do not know the industry standard but if I was to spend $150k on a sailboat I want the sails up...make sure all the winches are working...and so on. When I bought mine, the broker spent 3 hours with me going over everything and the sea trials lasted about 1 1/2 hours. I was the one who got tired and was ready to get back. Except for getting out of a very busy Newport Beach Marina....I was at the helm most of the time. Also....no problem putting the engine at full throttle. If someone was afraid to put a diesel engine at full throttle for 5 minutes, I would be afraid to buy the boat. I want to know if it overheats, stays at top rpm, can reach hull speed for a period of time.
I think there are some red flags here....pay attention to your instincts and walk away if you need to. You need to be in control of the situation so that you can make the best decision without regrets.

Best,

Abe

[BrownBear]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

Hi...

It is a sailboat...right? I do not know the industry standard but if I was to spend $150k on a sailboat I want the sails up...make sure all the winches are working...and so on. When I bought mine, the broker spent 3 hours with me going over everything and the sea trials lasted about 1 1/2 hours. I was the one who got tired and was ready to get back. Except for getting out of a very busy Newport Beach Marina....I was at the helm most of the time. Also....no problem putting the engine at full throttle. If someone was afraid to put a diesel engine at full throttle for 5 minutes, I would be afraid to buy the boat. I want to know if it overheats, stays at top rpm, can reach hull speed for a period of time.
I think there are some red flags here....pay attention to your instincts and walk away if you need to. You need to be in control of the situation so that you can make the best decision without regrets.

Best,

Abe

Sorry for the short response here but yea ditto that. I mean it’s a SAILBOAT, not a motorboat and I’m a motor boating SOB. Haha. I can’t with all good reason buy a sailboat without sailing her. I have never had a diesel sailboat before but I have plenty on my work truck fleet and I’m with you. We run them long and hard pulling fifth wheels full of equipment and tools and it’s not like a should you do this it’s you have to do this. It’s part of the job and the last thing we think of is the engine, we wouldn’t run these jobs if the engine was in doubt. The reality is the engine should perform as expected not as a variable. I wouldn’t put my crew, my business or myself at risk if I ever had to think about the engine performing. The engine is a non variable. It’s expected to work, in all conditions, on demand and without fail.

[AKA-None]

To enlighten some a sea trial is after you decide to buy the boat to see if everything is as representative not to see if you like the boat. It’s not a test drive like buying a car. At the sea trial you are trying to determine if any adjustments need to be made to the price or if it’s not as represented.
So yes sails up, sailing but wot on the engine then yes once it’s warmed up.

[boatpoker]

The Sea Trial ... it ain't just another boat ride.

[dfelsent]

Moonbeams sea trial was straightforward but still took several hours. The sea was glass so sailing was out of the question. The owner, surveyor, and I were aboard. The surveyor asked the owner to push the engine hard. Which he did. While temp measurements were happening.
The water cooled fridge and freezer were tested.
The owner and I had bent on and hoisted the sails at the dock earlier in the day.
It was a very cooperative effort between the three of us.
Not to say the surveyor did not find things the owner and I did not know about. (I had spent several days a few weeks earlier crawling through the boat before.).
But it was all an effort to make sure all eyes were open and that if the sale went through there would not be any hard feelings one way or another.
Perhaps unusual, but the process worked well.
And the seller was a yard manager and broker selling his own boat , and the surveyor was a past president of SAMS plus more. And I have a clue about complex systems as well as boats.
So all three of us were eyes open, experienced, and knowledgeable. An ideal situation. And six years on I have had zero regrets.
If you, the buyer, are not comfortable with your knowledge, please find a surveyor who is on YOUR side to help you out.