New Member - Going the opposite direction?

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by N4061

Thanks to everyone who has already responded to my post. My head is already spinning with all the options (not as simple as a trawler) and the strange (to me) language. I will be on Google tonight looking up many of the terms used.
Fun stuff.....

A few answers to help you all help me include;

1. Budget staying under $500K for this boat (prefer new build)

2. Longest trip after learning how to sail and building confidence would be to Cabo (900 miles) with others. Possibly the Baja Ha Ha run.

3. Understand the point about heavy = slower. Something for me to think about. As with any boat its all about trade offs. I understand the Island Packet line of boats are "love them or hate them" is this due to their keel design and heavy displacement?

4. I will update my profile next

Thanks again.....

If you're sailing the Pacific west coast, each day you sail south will take you three days to sail back. The Haha (down) is much more popular than the obligatory bash (up).

At $500,000 all in, I'd forget new build and especially wood. If you are a glutton for punishment and just love that old look there's quite a few old Kittenbergs out there that could stand a good refittting well within your budget.

And while I'm being such a downer - look around the marinas and figure out where you'll keep your boat (and at what cost) Seems like there's two boats for every slip around here

[sail sfbay]

Why not sailing?..............no reason not to, have both........I have a 46 ft sailboat and 50 ft sundeck motoryacht.

1. Need to be able to single handle the boat (should I insist on electronic winches to help with the lines) - have all the halyards and controls routed to the cockpit. The only electric winch you will need is the sheet the main sail in before you do a controlled jib as long as you have an in-mast furling main (no winch required) - my Hunter 46 has this set up.
2. Start out on San Diego Bay then once comfortable start coastal cruises with 60 - 90 miles between ports - sound like a plan and have adequate fuel, water and holding tank capacity.
3. Desire a heavy high quality design - I will let others speak to that as I have a newer Hunter 46 that can handle that comfortably.
4. Assume a good portion of time motoring (up to 50%) - get a strong diesel Yanmar, which I have on my Hunter 46 (76 hp) or a Beta Marine, which I have been advised is a great engine.
5. Size between 30' - 40' with protection from the weather (yes, still spoiled with the trawlers) - buy the largest sailboat with high free-board you can afford since the longer and heavier it is the more comfortable and faster and install a dodger (hard dodger is best and consider full cockpit enclosure to keep out of the weather. I have all that on my Hunter 46.
6. Enjoy the new boat build process so would like to start with a new build and customize - good plan,.....expensive......a good option is to buy a used boat with all the features you want vs. new build or a retrofit.
7. I think I want the minimum number of sails to manage?? Absolutely.....a furling in-mast main and a furling jib, which is what I have on my Hunter 46.

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by N4061

................1. Budget staying under $500K for this boat (prefer new build) and 2. Longest trip after learning how to sail and building confidence would be to Cabo (900 miles) with others. Possibly the Baja Ha Ha run. and 3. Understand the point about heavy = slower. Something for me to think about. As with any boat its all about trade offs. I understand the Island Packet line of boats are "love them or hate them" is this due to their keel design and heavy displacement? .............

1. With that budget you have a lot of options and I would buy the largest and stout sailboat with all the electronics, cruising laminate sails, complete canvas, redundancy, lots of tankage, diesel heater, AC, dinghy/motor, dinghy davits, bow thruster, etc.
2. If you plan to sail 900 miles then I would look for a 45+ ft boat. My Hunter 46 would handle that just fine. Longer the better.
3. Heavy is NOT slower............it just provides a smoother and more comfortable sail. My Hunter 46 achieves hull speed + all day long with 15+ knots winds and only need 5 knots of wind to get sailing. I have a ton of safety and cooking gear that adds weight that does not hold the boat back. The Hunter 46 has a fin keel with a large spade rudder that is relatively stable and extremely maneuverable in marinas but a full keel would provide additional stability at the sacrifice of marina maneuverability.

[N4061]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

This was also the boat that came to mind when I read your original post, but Don beat me to it. It checks a few of your boxes (heavy, protection from the elements, plenty of power.)

Since you've got a pretty decent budget, take a look at these, as well. They are sailboats with deck salons, not motorsailers (there was a torturous thread about the difference recently), and they are customizable both in layout and keel type. So you can really tailor the boat to your needs and expectations. Great reputation for quality workmanship, lots of stowage and tankage, lots of features that make it easy to sail shorthanded.


https://www.sirius-werft.de/wpsirius/en/yachten/35ds/

Because they are a small company, it will take you time to buy, which will give you time to sail with people, or do what I did and join a club to sail cruisers. (But don't do what I did and decide you cruising on other people's boats more than owning.)

Thankyou, I actually discovered this company on line, reached out to them and received information. Amazing how much they squeeze into a 31 or 35 foot boat.

[N4061]

Originally Posted by sail sfbay

Why not sailing?..............no reason not to, have both........I have a 46 ft sailboat and 50 ft sundeck motoryacht.

1. Need to be able to single handle the boat (should I insist on electronic winches to help with the lines) - have all the halyards and controls routed to the cockpit. The only electric winch you will need is the sheet the main sail in before you do a controlled jib as long as you have an in-mast furling main (no winch required) - my Hunter 46 has this set up.
2. Start out on San Diego Bay then once comfortable start coastal cruises with 60 - 90 miles between ports - sound like a plan and have adequate fuel, water and holding tank capacity.
3. Desire a heavy high quality design - I will let others speak to that as I have a newer Hunter 46 that can handle that comfortably.
4. Assume a good portion of time motoring (up to 50%) - get a strong diesel Yanmar, which I have on my Hunter 46 (76 hp) or a Beta Marine, which I have been advised is a great engine.
5. Size between 30' - 40' with protection from the weather (yes, still spoiled with the trawlers) - buy the largest sailboat with high free-board you can afford since the longer and heavier it is the more comfortable and faster and install a dodger (hard dodger is best and consider full cockpit enclosure to keep out of the weather. I have all that on my Hunter 46.
6. Enjoy the new boat build process so would like to start with a new build and customize - good plan,.....expensive......a good option is to buy a used boat with all the features you want vs. new build or a retrofit.
7. I think I want the minimum number of sails to manage?? Absolutely.....a furling in-mast main and a furling jib, which is what I have on my Hunter 46.

thanks for the great comparison between my current needs and your Hunter. I will definitely take a look.

[sea2ocean]

Originally Posted by N4061

Hello, I'm a new member to this forum and look forward to learning (a lot) and where possible offer some input to others. I should mention up front I have zero experience sailing and have been a life time powerboater. Grew up on Long Island, NY before settling in southern California after college. I have owned many different styles of boats including recently three (3) Nordhavn and one (1) Helmsman trawler which I assisted the builder in redesigning. I have been active on the Trawler Forum, written articles for major magazines and published a small book related to Living Aboard. I also enjoy assisting others with anything related to boating. Fast forward 35+ years and my wife is done with spending time on the water so I figure its time to try something different as I near retirement. Why not sailing?

With no experience I recognize my journey starts here and I will likely ask many dumb questions so don't laugh (too hard). One of the great things about discovering something new is your mind can travel with no real boundaries. This allows me to desire a Northeastern build wooden classic with beautiful lines while recognizing I likely need more of a pilothouse design for comfort. Below is my initial requirements list as far as I know today using what I call the 90% rule (who will be aboard and how will I use the boat 90% of the time).

1. Need to be able to single handle the boat (should I insist on electronic winches to help with the lines)
2. Start out on San Diego Bay then once comfortable start coastal cruises with 60 - 90 miles between ports.
3. Desire a heavy high quality design
4. Assume a good portion of time motoring (up to 50%)
5. Size between 30' - 40' with protection from the weather (yes, still spoiled with the trawlers)
6. Enjoy the new boat build process so would like to start with a new build and customize
7. I think I want the minimum number of sails to manage??

This should get us started and shows how much I don't know.

Thanks everyone.

John T

Find a local sailing club. Go sailing a few times. All those questions are premature. You might hate sailing. You never know.

[sail sfbay]

A very young couple with a 2 year child WITHOUT sailing experience just purchased a newer, used Beneteau 49 next to me. Heck.........they had to hire a captain to drive the boat 6 miles to its new home in Sausalito, California just across the bay (I offered to do it and teach how to run the boat at no charge).

Do there is a saying.....buy your last boat first!!

[Mithril Bham]

Forget electric winches. Maybe on main. You need to sail a lot of boats. Charter for a while. You know Nordhaven has a motor sailer.

[mvweebles]

I too have thought about going from trawler to sail. I doubt I will, but have definitely thought about it.

Acquiring basic sailing skills (my level) comes quite quickly. That said, for voyaging, it's pretty easy to find yourself over your head when the wind pipes up. But sailing knowledge is not your limiting factor. Not sure what is, but it's not that.

A good friend of mine used to singlehanding a Brewer 46 pilothouse on SF Bay. He sailed all over with it, including some trips out the Gate. He had one electric winch on the cabin top that served many lines via a cluster of rope clutches. He loved the winch and would do it again - he had the power button situated so he could press with his knee and keep both hands free.

For me, a classic motorsailor in the 36-40 foot range is what I noodle over. Idea of spending an overnight watch in an open cockpit is not attractive to me so I'd want a decent pilot house, even in the tropics.

Sails for me provide stability and propulsion, either backup or axillary to extend range. With rigging, they are approximately the same price as stabilizers but require more maintenance. But they allow a more simple build.

Downside on virtually any sailboat is the engine room sucks. As a result, engines are frequently neglected. Thru-hulls are scattered all over the boat.

Boats that catch my attention: the Nauticat 38/39 are more my style (though teak decks would have to go). While not a MS, the Amel is very tempting despite its size - very well protected helm station with very sensible layout and decent engineering for mechanicals. They also sail pretty well.

Sounds like you're a serial new boat guy. You may want to consider working with a Naval architect and going custom. Michael Kasten is pretty flexible and understands one-off build and design. Here's a decent article by him on motorsailors. Just be aware you would take a financial beating on this - market for motorsailors is small, market for one-off boats is small. Market for one-off motorsailors is infinitesimal.

http://www.kastenmarine.com/idealMS.htm

Best of luck to you.

Peter

[Pelagic]

Hello John and welcome aboard this merry band of Ragamuffins

With your experience the transition is easy, it will be more about prioritising the ergonomics to your preferences and understanding the tradeoffs.


1. Need to be able to single handle the boat (should I insist on electronic winches to help with the lines)

Not necessary as you learn to depower sails when winching in and for a new sailor, a manual captive winch helps you to "feel" if something is hung up.

My own 65 ft steel pilothouse schooner has only manual winches which with smaller furling sails is no problem for my 95Ib partner

2. Start out on San Diego Bay then once comfortable start coastal cruises with 60 - 90 miles between ports.

I know SD well with heavy fog at times, so my preference is a good pilothouse design wth full engine controls and radar


3. Desire a heavy high quality design

My preference also.... I tend to think in terms of displacement with a good foot in the water for comfort in a seaway.

Optimum.is between 35-45 tons for single handing

4. Assume a good portion of time motoring (up to 50%)

Probably more than 50% so a motorsailor with sizeable engineroom was one of my priorities

5. Size between 30' - 40' with protection from the weather (yes, still spoiled with the trawlers)

Keep your mind open on this as the transition from power to sail with a skinnier hull and finer ends shrinks the interior down considerably.

Add on a large bowspirit for rigging angles, and davit, so that 40 ft power, easily becomes 60ft motorsailer



6. Enjoy the new boat build process so would like to start with a new build and customize

Alternatively a quality built and proven design that is ready for some modernization and equipment upgrades is within your budget

My own CORTEN steel Dutch built schooner has had extensive upgrades for the tropics, solar independence and is a wonderful split level liveaboard, which is easier on the knees as I get older

7. I think I want the minimum number of sails to manage??

It is more about balance and manageable size than number.

My own furling sails are behind the masts, nothing to jam and easier to pull down if needed.

A few photos of the features I personally enjoy on my boat for your reference.

Hope this helps


Walk in cockpit.

Large walk out bowspirit for anchor work

Staysail schooner design

Functional Pilothouse with raised seating for good visability

Comfortable split bunk owners cabin for either tack

[Benz]

For a completely customizable new build, check out the Cape George Marine Works in Port Townsend, WA. Lots of hull options, all of them solid full-keelers that will both move fast and be comfortable.

[boatman61]

Easy to handle sails..???
Don't come easier than a Junk Rig..

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Easy to handle sails..???
Don't come easier than a Junk Rig..

The junk rig makes an excellent motor sailing rig.Lots of sail area down low=low angle of heel. Shorter mast/masts, can be freestanding=cheaper and simpler to maintain. Great looking [emoji16]

And Michael Kasten, the NA suggested by mvweebls, in the quote below, is experienced with the Junkrig.

Oh, and the Junkrig market is pretty fanatical, but smaller than infinitesimal!

"Sounds like you're a serial new boat guy. You may want to consider working with a Naval architect and going custom. Michael Kasten is pretty flexible and understands one-off build and design. Here's a decent article by him on motorsailors. Just be aware you would take a financial beating on this - market for motorsailors is small, market for one-off boats is small. Market for one-off motorsailors is infinitesimal.

http://www.kastenmarine.com/idealMS.htm "

[fourlyons]

Kasten on the Junkrig;

http://www.kastenmarine.com/junk_rig.htm

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

The junk rig makes an excellent motor sailing rig.Lots of sail area down low=low angle of heel. Shorter mast/masts, can be freestanding=cheaper and simpler to maintain. Great looking [emoji16]

And Michael Kasten, the NA suggested by mvweebls, in the quote below, is experienced with the Junkrig.

Oh, and the Junkrig market is pretty fanatical, but smaller than infinitesimal!

"Sounds like you're a serial new boat guy. You may want to consider working with a Naval architect and going custom. Michael Kasten is pretty flexible and understands one-off build and design. Here's a decent article by him on motorsailors. Just be aware you would take a financial beating on this - market for motorsailors is small, market for one-off boats is small. Market for one-off motorsailors is infinitesimal.

Defining The Ideal Motorsailer "

Oh jeez now I have another fabulous new boat to lust after. Thanks a lot

(It's harder being a inveterate boat-shopping addict than you think. Sirius 35ds recovery therapy is expensive as bleep!)