New to sailing - some questions

[sv_pelagia]

"We live in Southern California"

How does someone in California come up with name "Letterkenny"?
Seems this should be reserved for certain Canadians. [emoji6]

Oh well, pitter patter...

[zstine]

If there's no inverter, then the AC panel only woks when on shore power. Inverters are not that expensive. under $100 for something to charge your computer and phones (500Watt). A few hundred if you want to run most anything you would in your house (2000Watt).


Most likely the water heater has an electric heating element on AC that only runs with dock power AND an engine heating loop to get hot water when the engine is running.


Figure in warm climates 80Amp-hr to 100Amp-hr to run the refrigerator, assuming it is 12Volt. You can only use ~50% of the capacity of the bank before damaging the battery (assuming lead acid). So you have a 120Ahr usable.. Some refers have the compressor on the engine and you need to run the engine to cool.


As far as the Dink, We have a 310 west marine "air floor" dinghy which rolls nice and is fairly light 70lbs.


I'm confused as to why you are looking at 2017 - 2018 basically new boats and then saying stuff about "if I have the budget for a motor or a kayak or a Torquedo".. You clearly have the budget, just buy a slightly older boat.

[desodave]

If your battery bank is only 240 Ah, it will be difficult to do much at anchor other than running your reefer unit - zstine is right on re refeer consumption - sail all day and you'll just get a day and night out of it assuming it was fully charged when you left the dock. Also many stock alternators are not capable of charging very quickly - it might take you a full day of motoring to charge the bank up. An inexpensive inverter won't be of any use if there's nothing left in the batteries to invert. Solar panels would be a great charging source especially in an area like SoCal.

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by zstine

If there's no inverter, then the AC panel only woks when on shore power. Inverters are not that expensive. under $100 for something to charge your computer and phones (500Watt). A few hundred if you want to run most anything you would in your house (2000Watt).


Most likely the water heater has an electric heating element on AC that only runs with dock power AND an engine heating loop to get hot water when the engine is running.


Figure in warm climates 80Amp-hr to 100Amp-hr to run the refrigerator, assuming it is 12Volt. You can only use ~50% of the capacity of the bank before damaging the battery (assuming lead acid). So you have a 120Ahr usable.. Some refers have the compressor on the engine and you need to run the engine to cool.


As far as the Dink, We have a 310 west marine "air floor" dinghy which rolls nice and is fairly light 70lbs.


I'm confused as to why you are looking at 2017 - 2018 basically new boats and then saying stuff about "if I have the budget for a motor or a kayak or a Torquedo".. You clearly have the budget, just buy a slightly older boat.

As mentioned before, have the confusion figured out now. There’s an alternator just not inverter which is fine since I’ll use one of the 500w ones for the AC that I need to use. 90% of the time this will be day trips so battery load won’t be too much of an issue but I like to think and plan ahead. Regarding budget, per the original post, I’m looking into essentially a fractional lease of the boat until the timing is right to get my own. I should rephrase that all those things are in the budget but just don’t make much economical sense for how much they would get used (a FRIB is about $3k for the smallest and a torqeedo is $2800 whereas a roll up with either a 3-5hp outboard or a trolling motor may come under $1k which makes more sense for something of occasional use). A full time ownership boat I would have a Davit and RIB, solar, and a hull with a generator and inverter. Again, just trying to brainstorm the most practical solution.

[waterman46]

[QUOTE=Mrfish;3302902]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

You will not really need a tender in So Cal as Catalina has shore boat taxis and the other islands you probably wont get off the boat.

I couldn't let this one get by without a small correction. Yes, Catalina has shore boats in the major harbors but Santa Cruz Island has excellent little harbors where you can anchor and go ashore (stay on the beach area only, and/or get a permit). The best part is exploring the caves in a kayak. Don't miss them! If you don't know where they are, just follow the kayak tours that visit them in the summer.

A kayak is really the way to go on a small boat where you are not going to need to haul big amounts of supplies to and from shore, and you don't mind being a little wet once on shore. Inflatable kayaks are used by many cruisers.

[mvweebles]

Years ago a girlfriends father belonged to a sailing club out of Oxnard. I certainly understand the appeal of a sailing club so you spend your time sailing vs repair and stuff. They also had a variety of boats from 20-footers up to about 35 feet.

Channel Islands are decent cruising. Beaching a dinghy is not always straightforward and can get some waves so what was a millpond in the morning is a bit of a challenge when you head back to the boat after a hike. Careful on the cheap pvc roll up dinghys - they are remarkably fragile. When the cheap ones rupture, tends to be an unrepairable gash vs a hole like hypalon.

I doubt the refrigerator will last more than a day or so on 240 AH capacity, especially considering loafing up with lukewarm goods and a ton of in and out common for a short cruise. A Yeti cooler with frozen water bottles that you can drink as they thaw works well.

Best bet is to get the boat, worry about dinghy after a few trips. We have a couple weekend anchorages that we've been to dozens of times and now often don't launch a dinghy. Perfectly happy to hang out on the hook.

Good luck. Would be interested to know how you decide and how you move forward. Good sailing there.

Peter

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Years ago a girlfriends father belonged to a sailing club out of Oxnard. I certainly understand the appeal of a sailing club so you spend your time sailing vs repair and stuff. They also had a variety of boats from 20-footers up to about 35 feet.

Channel Islands are decent cruising. Beaching a dinghy is not always straightforward and can get some waves so what was a millpond in the morning is a bit of a challenge when you head back to the boat after a hike. Careful on the cheap pvc roll up dinghys - they are remarkably fragile. When the cheap ones rupture, tends to be an unrepairable gash vs a hole like hypalon.

I doubt the refrigerator will last more than a day or so on 240 AH capacity, especially considering loafing up with lukewarm goods and a ton of in and out common for a short cruise. A Yeti cooler with frozen water bottles that you can drink as they thaw works well.

Best bet is to get the boat, worry about dinghy after a few trips. We have a couple weekend anchorages that we've been to dozens of times and now often don't launch a dinghy. Perfectly happy to hang out on the hook.

Good luck. Would be interested to know how you decide and how you move forward. Good sailing there.

Peter

Thanks Peter. It’s a bit more involved than a standard sail club (which we are members as well). We essentially have a 1/8 non equity share of the boat (and decided on the 2017 Beneteau 31 today based on availability) so we will get a lot more usage than paying daily charter rates. I would consider getting my own boat and putting it in the program but that would just be too rough on it and would require quite the refit after it exists. Probably less wear than the BVI charters would be but not ideal.

Still undecided on the tender but will likely start with a cheap intex kayak from Amazon. Seem fairly stable, small, and would fit our use down in San Diego while we see what we actually need longer term. My wife told me to do this originally but I just saw it as another opportunity for another boat!!

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

Still undecided on the tender but will likely start with a cheap intex kayak from Amazon. Seem fairly stable, small, and would fit our use down in San Diego while we see what we actually need longer term. My wife told me to do this originally but I just saw it as another opportunity for another boat!!

Welcome


Many options and even more opinions to be found on tenders


The Intex inflatable "kayaks" that I have seen are sold as "water toys" and are not vessels that meet USCG safety standards. I've spoken with people who have them and they like them -- but their goals are to get a few years of use out of them and give their young kids something fun to do on very protected waters within swimming distance of shore.


I think the advice upthread to get a small HP floor inflatable is good advice.


You can use a 2 or 3 hp outboard with it. In those sizes the fuel tank is part of the outboard. You can carry extra fuel in a safety can without stinking up your car or creating a fire hazard.


Read the reviews before deciding on a Torqueedo. They are great when they work. Draw your own conclusions about long-term durability and parts/warranty support. Might take a look at likely outcomes if you hit something with the prop which is common in dinghy service.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

Still undecided on the tender but will likely start with a cheap intex kayak from Amazon. Seem fairly stable, small, and would fit our use down in San Diego while we see what we actually need longer term. My wife told me to do this originally but I just saw it as another opportunity for another boat!!

You will NOT be happy with a cheap inflatable kayak, don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

We use and love our Advanced Elements inflatable kayak, and using the back bone makes it perform as well as a rigid kayak.

There are lots of other kayak options out there, including folding versions, that work well and will be durable for cruising. Don't buy something you'll regret.

If you're interested, here's my Cruisers Guide to Using the Torqeedo Travel

We are full time cruisers (salt water, of course) who anchor 99.9% of the time and rely on our dinghy to get to shore and back to our boat.

We've had our Torqeedo (Travel 3000) for 3 years and love it. It is outside mounted on the dinghy (in the davits on passage, in the water- salt water, when at anchor) all year around, in cold, rain, snow, heat, and spray from sailing. We've found it to be super reliable.

It is not perfect (see below) but far superior to dealing with gas engines, propane, etc. The fuel is free! We love the quiet, and we're not in a hurry so don't need our dinghy to plane.

Cruisers Guide to Using the Torqeedo Travel

1. First, get the extended range battery. With over 900aph it's range is easily more than 5 miles.

2. Start slow and get spare shear pins. We learned the hard way that the torque of electric engines at fast start up is enough to shear the pin. So start the throttle slow and gradually speed up. We haven't sheared a pin due to torque since we started doing that, though hitting kelp or anything harder will do it. In a pinch, if you don't have a spare shear pin, we've used a thick cotter pin cut to fit.

3. Learn how to care for a lithium battery. I spoke with a factory rep at a boat show who said that most complaints come from owners who don't know how to use their lithium battery correctly. Do NOT keep it topped off and charge frequently. Let it run down to 30-50% before recharging. This battery actually prefers a partial SOC, so if you're not going to use it for awhile, store it with 50-80% SOC.

4. Screw the terminals on straight! If you're not careful it is easy to screw them on crooked and it won't work.

5. Get a spare prop. Like all dinghy outboards, the prop is small and relatively inexpensive. The Torqeedo prop is plastic and lasts a long time if it doesn't hit anything, which you can't always control.

6. Security- we use an outboard engine lock that covers the transom handles and a bike lock that goes from the battery handle to the outboard engine lock. I've seen owners use a padlock through the holes of the transom handles (facing each other), but they are plastic and that's not secure enough for me.

7. Get the solar panel. If you live on the hook as we do, you are energy conscious and the solar panel, though expensive, is very well made, durable, and worth the bucks. If you dock your boat in a marina, don't bother with the solar panel.

8. Don't bother with the bluetooth dongle. I love gadgets and this works well to easily see your speed, energy usage, etc. while under way, but the same information can be obtained by leaning over and looking at the display on the tiller. I found myself not using this gadget after first playing with it.

9. Slow down! The battery lasts amazingly long at low speeds, and gets depleted quick at higher speeds. A typical dinghy trip from our anchored boat to shore is @1/4 mile and typically uses 6-8% of battery round trip at 4-5 knots or so in calm conditions. That same trip will use 20% or so at full throttle going 7-8 knots (in our 135 lb hard plastic dinghy with 350 lbs of people and stuff). It's nice to know the power is there when you need it (we've powered through 5 foot waves against 35 knot winds to get back to our boat) but it's even nicer to relax and enjoy the view in a leisurely trip to shore and back. We've gone 2-3 miles at a time exploring remote anchorages, getting back to the boat with plenty of battery power to spare (extended range battery). We find that 2 miles at a slow speed uses 8-10% of battery power, so 20% to go 2 miles and back to the boat.

[JimsCAL]

The problem with a trolling motor is the battery. Its heavy and you have to figure out how to charge it when out cruising. A small gas outboard is a much better option.

[KayZee]

Originally Posted by Mrfish

You will not really need a tender in So Cal as Catalina has shore boat taxis and the other islands you probably wont get off the boat.

I don't go to Avalon but in Isthmus Cove shore service is something like $7.00 each person, each way. Put another way: Two people going to get a little walk and some fresh ice is $28 round trip. If you go back for dinner later, $56 for the day for a distance a lot of us could swim if you're not in fourth of july or Cherry cove.

To the OP. We sail out of marina del rey and of course our most common trip is to Catalina. On our 30' Islander, West's smallest wooden transom roll up with a slat floor works just fine. It doesn't roll well against a wind but If the wind is not up or in my favor I row us to the pier at Isthmus often instead of using the motor. it's only comfortable/rated for 3 adults but I've snuck four onto it in a dead calm inside a harbor.

We split about 50-50 for towing vs stowing on the foredeck. We have little problem either way and even for us 60ish folks, heaving it up on to the foredeck (by hand) is not excessively difficult. Towing, I use a commercially bought floating bridle, always tie a fresh knot from the bridle to the tow line (to fight chafe), and never tie to the pulpit but rather a stern cleat. Going in or out of the slip we tie it up very short so there isn't enough slack to get into the prop. The stern of the boat nudges the dinghy out of the way perfectly. It creates no problem. Towing costs my 30 footer around a 3/4 to a knot of boat speed in light winds.

We've towed it home from Catalina in up to 20 knots and four to five foot waves without issue. Any more than that, I would probably do a quick roll up on the foredeck and lash it well.

If you do get a roll up/slat floor and have to provide a motor do not get more than a 2.5 hp. The dinghy will NOT ever plane and anything over a motor that takes you to a fast walking pace is just wasted weight on your pulpit and the dinghy. A true high pressure floor with an inflatable keel will plane, so keep in mind how far you plan to be from landing spots and vs. The expense and weight of the boat and motor.

I like rowing so I keep thinking about folding and nesting dinghies but it probably wont be on our present boat.

[Letterkenny]

First of all, thanks everyone for the input. SV_Grace - I am very much of the motto of spend the money if you are going to use it a lot to get a quality product. Unlike your situation, I’m not going to be living on the boat nor able to store it on the boat. If I were able to do do, getting a RIB and a small outboard would be a no brainer. I’m guessing 75% of our usage will be sailing in and around San Diego Harbor and San Diego County. Where we will need some sort of tender is if we anchor up in Mission Bay, Coronado, or La Playa for the day and decide to go to shore (which getting permits can be a challenge alone from what I heard). Anything we get will have to go in the back of the SUV and down to the boat. My only concern about getting a more expensive Kayak is that I will start to get into the cheaper roll up inflatable categories and I like the idea of having one of those.

Uneducated on this as I never transported an outboard in the back of our SUV before but is there any best practice for carrying it? My main concern was that it needs to be vertical the whole time. In addition, what about storing it on the boat if there is no outboard bracket? This is partially why I was thinking electric to not have to worry about fluids leaking but any all in one electric outboard seems to run over $2k which is double the cost of a gas outboard.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

Uneducated on this as I never transported an outboard in the back of our SUV before but is there any best practice for carrying it?

All dinghy-sized outboards can be transported on their side and do not have to be kept vertical. The newer 4 stroke ones have a specific orientation you have to use -- on my 8HP Yamaha it's with the tiller side down. There's ordinarily a decal on the motor and instructions in the manual on which orientations will work.


They do not leak fluids, as long as you run the carb dry by running the engine with the fuel valve closed, until it dies of its own accord, while the outboard is still in water.

what about storing it on the boat if there is no outboard bracket?

The 2-3 hp short-shaft outboards weigh about 30 pounds and can fit in a lazarette.



Curiously, Evinrude made a folding 3hp in the 1960s that came with a custom fitted suitcase. They still come up for sale occasionally. There is no modern equivalent.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

What makes you say these boats don't have alternators? I have never, ever heard of an inboard powered boat without one, obviously to charge the batteries when the engine is running. Or maybe you are thinking of an inverter?

I think he means generator. They don't have a generator to make AC power.

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by hamburking

I think he means generator. They don't have a generator to make AC power.

I was mixing inverter and alternator in my head. I asked about an inverter and later remembered it as alternator. Post made prior to enough coffee.

Any good places to look for used outboards? I’m striking out on Craigslist.