Nicholson 38 sunk on Baja Ha-Ha

[h20man]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Misplaced trust.


There's the Captain Ron movie, 100 books on how to start sailing, 1000 magazine articles on how to start out with your first boat, and 10,000 individual posters on facebook and various sailing forums who all say the same thing:

When you're new at this and buy your first boat, hire a delivery captain and heed well his advice.

The problem with this thread and other, parallel discussions elsewhere, is that they focus on Mr. McCormack as an outlier, the exceptional delivery captain who is, well, bad at being a delivery captain. There is an underlying presumption that he's the 1% who gives the other 99% a bad name.

The broader question of just exactly how someone with little or no sailing experience is supposed to choose a competent, trustworthy, honorable, responsible delivery captain, who sits down while using the head, cleans up the galley when off-watch, keeps their hands to themselves, keeps a good watch, has the judgment and forecasting skills to avoid heavy weather, has both confidence and humility, enculturates these values and teaches these skills to others who serve as crew, etc., has not been covered. Despite the overall libertarian bent of sailing forums there have been many unopposed calls for the government to take care of this for us, by tightening up standards for licensure.

I am not advocating that there should be some government mandated licence to sail. Humans have been on the water since the first tree fell in the water.


I am AGAINST incompetent people fooling others by muddying the water and claiming contradicting 'facts' about their experience. This tragedy would have been avoided, if Mr. McCormack's record had been known before. Unfortunately, due to obfuscation or censorship (on his facebook page ) Mr. McCormacks record has been hidden, thus causing further damage to boats.. yet thankfully not loss of life yet.



[REDACTED]

[Jammer]

Mod Hat On

The moderators have reviewed this thread and the related thread:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-161040-8.html

A decision has been reached to leave this thread (Nicholson 38 sunk on Baja Ha Ha) open for further discussion as the topic is an important one to the sailing and cruising community. The "Sleigh Ride" thread has been closed to further posts in an effort to centralize discussion.

All posters are asked to keep their posts factual and on topic and to avoid repeating material already posted upthread.

Several posts have been deleted or redacted. Please contact the moderators privately with any concerns. The best way to contact the moderators is to use the "report post" button --- the red triangle with the exclamation point inside that appears on every post. You may report your own post if you have questions regarding redactions, and report any related post if you have questions about a post that was deleted.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Misplaced trust.


There's the Captain Ron movie,

This Made my day

The broader question of just exactly how someone with little or no sailing experience is supposed to choose a competent, trustworthy, honorable, responsible delivery captain...

How do you find a good mechanic, a good realtor, a good lawyer, etc.?

You do your due diligence. Ask brokers, ask sailors, ask chandleries. Background check, check their insurance... check their license and certifications... WAIT!

This is my issue. How many failures did this captain have, and USCG still didn't do anything about it?

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Iron E

This Made my day
This is my issue. How many failures did this captain have, and USCG still didn't do anything about it?

Did the Exxon Valdez captain lose his license? Or other captains who have hit rocks or lost vessels in storms? Probably not. They passed the test, so they've been proved qualified. So long as they keep up any necessary renewals, they hold the license. The USCG doesn't seem to have much of a role in revoking licenses. It IS up to employers to perform due diligence before they decide to hire someone. This thread shows that simply holding a captain's license is not a good criterion to base that decision on.

[BoatBumGal]

Originally Posted by psk125

Did the Exxon Valdez captain lose his license? Or other captains who have hit rocks or lost vessels in storms? Probably not. They passed the test, so they've been proved qualified. So long as they keep up any necessary renewals, they hold the license. The USCG doesn't seem to have much of a role in revoking licenses. It IS up to employers to perform due diligence before they decide to hire someone. This thread shows that simply holding a captain's license is not a good criterion to base that decision on.

Due diligence is difficult when there is no central reporting agency or rating system. I have learned the hard way. I sincerely hope others learn from my mistakes.

[h20man]

Originally Posted by BoatBumGal

Due diligence is difficult when there is no central reporting agency or rating system. I have learned the hard way. I sincerely hope others learn from my mistakes.

The thing that bothers me the most.. is that due to the ability to curate posts on his Facebook.. the bad things were hidden away.


Stunning to see the appalling history of previous deliveries that was there.. but not accessible..



I appreciate CF for leaving this thread..as hopefully it shall help people in the the future avoid the sad fate of BBG.

[BoatBumGal]

Originally Posted by h20man

The thing that bothers me the most.. is that due to the ability to curate posts on his Facebook.. the bad things were hidden away.


Stunning to see the appalling history of previous deliveries that was there.. but not accessible..



I appreciate CF for leaving this thread..as hopefully it shall help people in the the future avoid the sad fate of BBG.

We share the same sentiment. One can not make informed decisions when the facts have been deleted or hidden.

[h20man]

Originally Posted by BoatBumGal

We share the same sentiment. One can not make informed decisions when the facts have been deleted or hidden.

@BoatBumGal, Sandra my deepest condolences again for the loss of your boat and all your worldly possessions... and the trauma that you must have gone through....




For people who do not know.. there is a gofundme for Sandra (owner of the BBG)...


https://www.gofundme.com/f/sailor-wh...g-the-bajahaha

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by psk125

Did the Exxon Valdez captain lose his license? Or other captains who have hit rocks or lost vessels in storms? Probably not. They passed the test, so they've been proved qualified. So long as they keep up any necessary renewals, they hold the license. The USCG doesn't seem to have much of a role in revoking licenses.

You may not see it, but your comment actually makes my point.

[JPA Cate]

The skipper of the Exxon Valdez had his ticket suspended by the USCG for a period of 9 months. The suspension was lifted on appeal, as he had had a spotless maritime record prior to then, and there had been extenuating circumstances relative to working conditions, so that Exxon was given the major portion of the blame. This according to the encyclopedia Brittanica.

If you look at the link Jammer provided above, you will see some discussion of the same skipper that was involved in the loss of the Nicholson 38 off Baja, from 2016. Earlier in this thread, there is a link to Sailing Anarchy, posted by h20man.

Welcome aboard CF, BoatBumGal.

Ann

[BlueH2Obound]

Sandra,


Welcome aboard as well! We were in the anchorage at Turtle Bay, had been there for two days before your incident. We didn't realize your situation until later that day. Sorry it happened, and hopefully you will get past it, and continue your dream with your new boat!

Regarding wreck 'em ray . . . . nope, I just don't need to go there . . . .

Once again, Welcome to the Forum!

[Woody]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

There is a tendency on social media to pile on when someone makes a mistake. When I read about major incidents like abandoned or destroyed boats, I always look at the incident to determine the root cause, but I never criticize the decisions of those involved, because I was not on that boat.

I agree with this sentiment and want to say that I appreciate those of you who have the wisdom and restraint to be able to try to learn from a situation without becoming a frothing internet mob. I'm not here to defend the guy that has become the subject of these threads, but I find that kind of behavior distasteful. It seems that anonymity can bring out the worst in people and while SailingAnarchy has embraced that culture, I'm grateful for the moderation and example that this forum upholds. How many of you were here when RebelHeart went through the gauntlet of being pilloried by the entire internet?


THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD, GO I

[h20man]

Originally Posted by Woody

I agree with this sentiment and want to say that I appreciate those of you who have the wisdom and restraint to be able to try to learn from a situation without becoming a frothing internet mob. I'm not here to defend the guy that has become the subject of these threads, but I find that kind of behavior distasteful. It seems that anonymity can bring out the worst in people and while SailingAnarchy has embraced that culture, I'm grateful for the moderation and example that this forum upholds. How many of you were here when RebelHeart went through the gauntlet of being pilloried by the entire internet?


THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD, GO I

@woody.. In regards to this incident.. I, at first was curious and wanted to learn.. I had heard the Baja Ha-Ha is one of the easiest group outings... and was stunned to hear that a boat sank. I wanted to understand what happened.. and yes.. "there, but for the grace of god, go I".. Yet.. the more I learnt, the more I found out about Ray McCormack, and that this was not the first 'negligent' behaviour exhibited by Mr. McCormack... and that this was not the first boat destroyed by Mr. Mcormack, and Mr. McCormack's own contradictions with his own statements, or 'collective truth or reality of other forum members.' (many of which are posted in this forum).


So.. the more I learnt, the more upset I became.. and the total lack of remorse (exhibited in Mr. McCormack's videos and posts), made me turn toward destain against Mr. McCormack's behaviour, pre and post incident.


I appreciate the fact that the moderators at CF decided to keep this and related threads (albeit with major editing) up, as it shall help others make an informed decision about the past behaviour of Mr. McCormack.


I am not saying that Mr. McCormack may not become the best delivery skipper in the world... rather that at this time I would not trust him with my vessel, on a vessel near my vessel, or on my friends vessel, and I would NOT recommend or suggest the use of Mr. McCormack to be crew on any vessel today.




I hope that explains my position, and that it helps you percieve that it is not a pile on.. rather driven by indignation that Mr. McCormack curated information in such a manner, that he was perceived as a competent mariner and caused so much pain to innocent people.

[mvweebles]

Ray issued a Facebook defense statement within a couple days of the incident.
In Ray's telling, his mistake was in departing with a poor-condition boat in the first place, not that his course cut the corner and followed a 10-meter depth line along a coastline with detached rocky outcroppings. Using his logic, had the boat had better rigging and electrics/electronics, it would have somehow avoided the rocks on the course he set.

Reading his words, he did not make a mistake. Ray intentionally cut the corner and ran shallow. He deserves no slack for making a mistake as he did exactly what he intended - it was just a gross error in judgement which he steadfastly refused to acknowledge.

Ray McCormack deserves every syllable of vile comment he's received. Based on his account, not anyone elses. No Monday morning quarterbacking here.

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Ray issued a Facebook defense statement within a couple days of the incident.
In Ray's telling, his mistake was in departing with a poor-condition boat in the first place, not that his course cut the corner and followed a 10-meter depth line along a coastline with detached rocky outcroppings. Using his logic, had the boat had better rigging and electrics/electronics, it would have somehow avoided the rocks on the course he set.

Just to quibble a detail...

According to Ray, the problem was the autopilot - that it made an uncommanded turn to port that put them on the rock.

I am not defending his decisions, and I very very definitely question some of them, but I wanted to make sure that the synopsis was corrected.