Now I understand how poor i am.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by amytom

Or better yet, find a way to get out of it. With the exception of the military and USCG can you name one federal project that was run well and efficiently?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

The military run well and efficiently?

Are you kidding?

There is so much waste in the military it's pathetic. (the military which includes all civil servants, DOD Contractors, etc)

I think Affordable Health Care is worth the extra money so all citizen of this country can actually see a doctor if they are sick especially the children. On top of that, it's not a good thing to have sick people running around untreated

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by goat

What is it? Earth Day today? Uhh...yeah, I guess it is...

Bingo! April 22.

Power to the many fruit of the evolution! All of them!

barnakiel

[Skuzzlebutt]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The military run well and efficiently?

I think Affordable Health Care is worth the extra money so all citizen of this country can actually see a doctor if they are sick especially the children. On top of that, it's not a good thing to have sick people running around untreated

Ah yes, let us not forget 'the children'. Who can object to anything if the word children is attached.

The sad thing is that the children are the ones who are being left with the bill for all this waste done in their name.

Now, lets see ... What exactly is the topic of this thread?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Skuzzlebutt

Ah yes, let us not forget 'the children'. Who can object to anything if the word children is attached.

The sad thing is that the children are the ones who are being left with the bill for all this waste done in their name.

So many are worried about having to pay for something!

What's the problem as long as you are healthy and have everything you need.

You even own a sailboat and live in Southern Florida which I believe was the OP's Dream........229 post ago

[amytom]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The military run well and efficiently?

Are you kidding?

There is so much waste in the military it's pathetic. (the military which includes all civil servants, DOD Contractors, etc)

I think Affordable Health Care is worth the extra money so all citizen of this country can actually see a doctor if they are sick especially the children. On top of that, it's not a good thing to have sick people running around untreated

We would all love to see a world where the children and everyone can see a doctor whenever they need it without going broke. I just think the government is the last organization that could make that happen. Affordable health care act has had the effect of taking away healthcare for some and making it more expensive for others. Welfare recipients may win out on the deal but where's the incentive to improve your situation if the government keeps making it easier not to.

Back to sailing, finally finished my assym today, wohoooo



Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[amytom]

Originally Posted by thomm225

So many are worried about having to pay for something!

What's the problem as long as you are healthy and have everything you need.

You even own a sailboat and live in Southern Florida which I believe was the OP's Dream........229 post ago

Not worried about paying for something? Are you a congressman?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by amytom

Not worried about paying for something? Are you a congressman?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I used to worry about paying for things but that changed a couple years back when I found out how quickly a person's life could be cut short. Plus I'm not getting any younger

I actually waited the "required" two weeks to figure out whether or not I wanted to pay the $2,000.00 the owner wanted for the boat I now own and have for 5 years

A boat (Bristol 27) that came with two anchors (20 lb CQR and a Bruce) with rode and heavy chain, almost new jib, depth, GPS (2), bilge pump, no soft spots, 4 extra anchors, dodger, tiller autopilot, etc, etc

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by four winds

I started to address that last post.

Think about what auto robots do. Like put a weld in the same spot as the line advances. And move things from place to place. Drill holes, torque bolts, etc.

I could be wrong, but I don't think they assemble a car. Think about how complex a humanless auto factory would be.

I think the complexity of a humanless McD's to assemble (let alone cook) a happy meal or a Big Mac is far greater than methods currently in use in automation.

Of course I could be hopped up on Mt. Dews and clueless.

Eliminating 100% of the workforce is very hard. Eliminating 60-80% thru automation is a lot easier.

Also, there are union rules negotiated into the contracts to limit automation. There are also political implications (there are usually huge govt distortions created thru tax breaks in exchange for hiring X number of workers). It's slowed it down but there has still been a steady creep into more and more automation. I'm betting if you took union rules and govt distortions out of the market, they would quickly replace 50-80% of workers with robots.

With fast food, you could use automation to quickly drop from say an average of 6-8 workers at any time to 2-3. It would largely be stocking the robots hoppers and cleaning the restaurant left to workers...maybe a modest amount of troubleshooting. Reality is the machines could probably make a hamburger that looks a lot more like the one in the commercial than the one you typically get.

[barnakiel]

I think, as automation and robotization progress, the biggest challenges will be neither of financial nor of technological type. I believe the biggest challenges will be of the social type.

The way I see it, robots will make men redundant, sooner or later. These robots are owned by someone. They are not owned by the masses, and so the products of robotization will not be distributed throughout the society. Work, as the factor binding the working masses with the owning classes will disappear, and so will any reason to share the fruits with anyone. And not only this. For when you can make any amount of goods with minimum input of human workforce, the need for consumers disappears as well.

You want a Ferrari? You ask your robots to build you one. You do not need to go thru the whole nonsense of producing and selling yoghurt and adding the pennies together. You do not need the workers on the plant and you do not need them to buy the goods they are producing to make you rich (=so that you can buy that Ferrari).

And how can this excess of human factor be solved? One, as usual, the old way, the owner of the crowd will have them fight the other crowd and so remove the excess human capital. The alternative is to make contraceptives very very cheap one or two generations before robotization starts to gain serious momentum. Owning this much and the government, you can actually start paying people for having one child only or better yet no children. Another good option is to feed them very very well, preferably with inexpensive food. Obesity and cheap entertainment not only shorten life but also render many human units incapable of, or disinterested in, reproduction.

Whichever way they go, they will have to do something about it soon.

The alternative would be to have distributed ownership of the means and so a reason to distribute the fruits. The robots work, we bask in the sun. However, this is what they call utopia, as we all know that unlimited supply creates unlimited demand. So, much as this is what many of us imagine, this is also exactly what will NOT happen.

Well, I guess we must just wait and see how it all plays out.

b.

[four winds]

Can't say I disagree with the posts above.

No doubt, well almost doubtless, in fifty years manufacturing will be radically different.

However, I recently watched Nova's "Rise of the Robots". It was very interesting and focused on the DARPA sponsored robot challege from last year (?).

I think sixteen teams from industry and university and arguably the most advanced robots in existence.

The course consisted of the robot driving a four wheeler, in a straight line a several feet, stopping, getting out and walking to a door and opening it. Then going inside to turn a valve, moving to then cut a whole with a sawsall type tool, and then I think hammering on something. Then it went back outside and climbed a few stairs to a platform.

Each robot was controlled by a team in a nearby tent that analyzed the sensory input and programmed each move along the way. With long delays between each step. And with real-time control to pause and adjust during execution.

Only one team could allow autonomous action of each task.

It was a very impressive display of technology but light years behind a typical sci-fi robot. The complexity of a robot "hand" (again a must for interaction in the human environment) was one of the greatest challenges. Balance was another, which is easily understood simply by standing barefooted and taking note of what your toes are doing that we typically give no thought to. Then consider the computing power and sensors needed to replicate that.

So I feel fairly comfortable sticking to an assertion that regardless of what social or societal hurdles are eliminated, the likelihood of common robots that can "do what humans do" is still some time away. I would say in the foreseeable future though. But removing any non technical hurdles won't result in triggering the reletively sudden appearance of common robots.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by four winds

Can't say I disagree with the posts above.

No doubt, well almost doubtless, in fifty years manufacturing will be radically different.

However, I recently watched Nova's "Rise of the Robots". It was very interesting and focused on the DARPA sponsored robot challege from last year (?).

I think sixteen teams from industry and university and arguably the most advanced robots in existence.

The course consisted of the robot driving a four wheeler, in a straight line a several feet, stopping, getting out and walking to a door and opening it. Then going inside to turn a valve, moving to then cut a whole with a sawsall type tool, and then I think hammering on something. Then it went back outside and climbed a few stairs to a platform.

Each robot was controlled by a team in a nearby tent that analyzed the sensory input and programmed each move along the way. With long delays between each step. And with real-time control to pause and adjust during execution.

Only one team could allow autonomous action of each task.

It was a very impressive display of technology but light years behind a typical sci-fi robot. The complexity of a robot "hand" (again a must for interaction in the human environment) was one of the greatest challenges. Balance was another, which is easily understood simply by standing barefooted and taking note of what your toes are doing that we typically give no thought to. Then consider the computing power and sensors needed to replicate that.

So I feel fairly comfortable sticking to an assertion that regardless of what social or societal hurdles are eliminated, the likelihood of common robots that can "do what humans do" is still some time away. I would say in the foreseeable future though. But removing any non technical hurdles won't result in triggering the reletively sudden appearance of common robots.

You are confusing an android (think Data from Start Treck the Next Generation) with a robot.

A fully autonomous device that can do anything and everything on request, is incredibly hard.

A device that makes a hamburger the exact same way every time is drastically easier. The only human intervention is to refill the supply hoppers, clean it and do occasional maintenance.

[barnakiel]

I think it will be mostly the robot (automata) type that we will see tomorrow at McDonald's. Androids likely only in sex services industry and in cruising.

b.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

............... there are union rules negotiated into the contracts to limit automation. ..............

BINGO! A big part of why manufacturing and other jobs are leaving the USA and going to countries where there are no labor unions.

Many years ago I was a professional musician. Unions specified the minimum number of musicians in a band for different sized ballrooms, etc. Room X had to have eight, room Y had to have ten, etc.

So what happened? Owners started hiring DJs and playing recorded music. Union musicians sat home on Saturday night.

[four winds]

They called them robots at the Darpa challenge. As did the poster in this thread, "replacing humans". And not a reference to an order kiosk or a fry machine with a hopper.

Not talking about something that looks human, like Data, but does have essentially human like articulation. A machine smart enough to get the bag of fries out of the freezer and fill the hopper, if you will.

Anyway, maybe I took the reference to robots earlier farther than intended. And this thread bores me now, so I'm done.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Many years ago I was a professional musician. Unions specified the minimum number of musicians in a band for different sized ballrooms, etc. Room X had to have eight, room Y had to have ten, etc.

So what happened? Owners started hiring DJs and playing recorded music. Union musicians sat home on Saturday night.

I was in the music business myself and still have family and friends that earn their living that way. Easy answer, don't join the union if it brings more detriments than benefits.

No one I knew was ever in the union. At the time I never asked but maybe this is why.