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Happ · 12-03-2021, 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneKoolCat

OK lets start by saying I apologize if this is a stupid question. It is possible that cabin fever has made me a little crazy.

I was talking to a friend that is just getting into boating, and I mentioned that I would buy him some PFDs for his birthday. I told him you need one for each person on board. I always have extra pfds onboard including one of those packs of four that never gets opened.

That got me thinking about my dinghy. I usually have 1 PFD on top of the battery box. When it is just me onboard that works. When I have the wife and 2 kids with me, am I 3 PFDs short in my tender? I have had 5 people on my tender. My girls are all old enough, so they are not mandated to wear the lifejackets. Come to think of it my wife is old enough as well. I would rather not stack the boat with pfds.

How many lifejackets you have in your tender?

I am in the USA and my state basically says to do what the federal government says. Everything I find online is “All recreational vessels must carry one wearable life jacket for each person on board”. I would also be interested in how it is in other countries.

Cheers
Peter

One PFD for every person onboard your dinghy. Period.

Bill_Giles · 12-03-2021, 07:40

More people drown between their boat and the shore than when on board (overboard, sunk etc). So one for each crew member, otherwise which one of the kids are you going to let go? Tough decision. And why do they create clutter, why not wear them. “Useless unless worn” is a local slogan. Who would want to face a coroner when they say “Sadly, they would be here today had they worn their lifejackets.”
(Lifejacket are the inflatable version otherwise known as LSJ or life saving jacket or PFD or personal floatation device or buoyancy aid which is a sort of padded waistcoat.)

SV__Grace · 12-03-2021, 07:45

Well, there's legal requirements and then practical reality.

If you want to follow all the rules, go for it, but PFDs for a dinghy depends upon how you use it, and here's my opinion-

1. For a planing dinghy with a sizable engine that is capable of going fast and long distances, everyone on board should be wearing the same high quality Type 1, 2, or 3 PFD they would for an ocean crossing or day of sailing in fresh conditions.

2. For a rowing dinghy or one (like ours) with a small engine that goes short distances (to shore and back when anchored) Type 4 throwable cushions are fine, especially if the dinghy has inherent flotation if capsized. If not, see #1.

3. Children, pets, and the elderly should be wearing Type 1 pfds at all times on the deck of the mother ship, in the dinghy, and on the dock.

This is what is practical and needed in my opinion, feel free to do what's needed for you and your guests to be comfortable and safe.

landsend · 12-03-2021, 07:46

Uncomfortable when worn. Interferes with my sun tanning. But because of this post I will carry them in the dinghy from now on. Carry on.

Sea Wolf · 12-03-2021, 07:58

In the US... one per person... no ifs, ands or buts. You say you can put your wife and 2 kids in the dinghy, so it must be fairly large. We had an 11’ West Marine inflatable, bought one of those black boxes with yellow lids at Home Depot, put a fitted waterproof cushion on it so it was a seat, plopped it between the pontoons and used it for storage and seating. It held 4 life jackets and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Elzaar · 12-03-2021, 16:53

It's too early and I'm light on coffee, but I'll make a few observations. I have 30 years LE experience including Harbor Patrol and lots in real Patrol. I also served in Combat Arms.

Why do so many discussions on boating seemingly have to turn political on this forum? There are forums here for political discussions, please use them if you are so inclined. I read the forums to learn and as a distraction. I was reading this one to get tips on PFDs while having my morning coffee.

I certainly empathize with those with PTSD. I have it. Pretty much all my friends have it. It's probably safe to say all of us have dealt with dead children resulting from various incidents - including drowning. Thanks so much for the reminders. I've buried at least 20 friends from gunshot wounds just on the LE side. It has never occurred to me to claim PTSD as a reason to take away the freedoms I swore to protect in two different Oaths. Nor do I support abolishing the 2nd Amendment. Destroying the Document I chose to commit my life to as a means of protecting myself or others who also chose to commit their lives to it would make the sacrifices all of us - the living and the dead - made, meaningless.

I appreciate the risks, personal costs, and terror that Search and Rescue, Firefighters, soldiers, and yes, even cops go through. But the Draft ended in about 1970. We do it because it is an Honor to Serve. Search and Rescue serve, just as Firefighters serve, to save people even at the risk of their own life. Probably more often than not to save people from the poor decisions those people made. It is an exceptionally honorable undertaking, and I salute anyone who does it.

But it doesn't trump the Individual Rights of people to have the freedom to make those decisions - whether they turn out to be good decisions or bad. The Bill of Rights carefully outlines the immutable rights of individuals. It doesn't say a single thing about the rights of public safety workers voluntarily operating in their professional capacity. We chose to accept the costs and risks when we raised our right hand. Compensation comes in many forms, but the rights of others isn't among them.

My brain is too fuzzy to recall the sources, but there are many very skilled boaters who can list the instances where a PFD not only wouldn't have saved a life, but that the wearing of one contributed to the loss of one. IIRC (and apologies if I don't) Evans Starzinger is not a fan of combining a PFD with a safety tether; A report I read last year specifically called into question the Spinlock PFD (which I wear) after it may have contributed to a racer's death when he went overboard; Just last month, I personally watched someone completely exhaust themselves trying to get back into a kayak because their life jacket was catching on the gunwale repeatedly and making re-boarding impossible. When I got close I told them to unzip the life jacket and try again while I spotted them - on the next try they were back in the kayak, and I reminded them to re-zip the jacket.

How and when to use a PFD seems to me to be one of the ultimate, basic demonstrations of why we have, and should insist on retaining, free will. There are times when the wearing of one will demonstrably improve one's chances of survival, and there are times when the wearing of one will demonstrably reduce the chances of one's survival. Whether a particular instance is 50%, 20%, or 90% is irrelevant and also the point: The Individual facing the specific instance is the only one in a position to decide what act gives them the single best chance to survive whatever it is they are facing.

So what does this have to do with the original discussion? Maybe this much:
As the person in charge of the craft you are responsible for the life and safety of EVERYONE on the craft. You may not own their right to choose, but you certainly owe them viable choices. Many of those aboard assume that, just by owning the thing, you have some knowledge and have given some forethought to protect THEIR well-being. If for no other reason, that means it is on you to make sure there is a serviceable PFD available for every one of them and to ensure that they know how and when to use it. People tend to fall off, sink and capsize tenders at least as often as they do big boats, so it seems like in many instances a "PFD for everyone" is probably even more important on the tender in some instances. Would I personally wear one to go from the Big Boat to the shore 100 yards away? Depends on the water temperature. Would a weak swimmer? Well, they certainly should and I would tell them so.

The individual user who doesn't want to hassle with the things or whatever? Well, while I may disagree with your judgement at times, or agree with it at others, I must by my word support your freedom to do as you feel best. I will add this though: Please keep in mind that there is more to the real-life equation than merely whether or not you are happy and feel safe. If you misjudge and things go awry, you may well be dead in less time than it takes a barista to make your morning latte. The poor bastards who have to risk life, limb, and sanity to come find you and face your loved-ones will carry it mostly hidden within them to the end of their days - assuming they survive the attempt to save you. It will cost them relationships, children, spouses, money, and physical health to name a few.

Choose wisely.

May be time for that latte.

Happ · 12-03-2021, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elzaar

It's too early and I'm light on coffee, but I'll make a few observations. I have 30 years LE experience including Harbor Patrol and lots in real Patrol. I also served in Combat Arms.

Why do so many discussions on boating seemingly have to turn political on this forum? There are forums here for political discussions, please use them if you are so inclined. I read the forums to learn and as a distraction. I was reading this one to get tips on PFDs while having my morning coffee.

I certainly empathize with those with PTSD. I have it. Pretty much all my friends have it. It's probably safe to say all of us have dealt with dead children resulting from various incidents - including drowning. Thanks so much for the reminders. I've buried at least 20 friends from gunshot wounds just on the LE side. It has never occurred to me to claim PTSD as a reason to take away the freedoms I swore to protect in two different Oaths. Nor do I support abolishing the 2nd Amendment. Destroying the Document I chose to commit my life to as a means of protecting myself or others who also chose to commit their lives to it would make the sacrifices all of us - the living and the dead - made, meaningless.

I appreciate the risks, personal costs, and terror that Search and Rescue, Firefighters, soldiers, and yes, even cops go through. But the Draft ended in about 1970. We do it because it is an Honor to Serve. Search and Rescue serve, just as Firefighters serve, to save people even at the risk of their own life. Probably more often than not to save people from the poor decisions those people made. It is an exceptionally honorable undertaking, and I salute anyone who does it.

But it doesn't trump the Individual Rights of people to have the freedom to make those decisions - whether they turn out to be good decisions or bad. The Bill of Rights carefully outlines the immutable rights of individuals. It doesn't say a single thing about the rights of public safety workers voluntarily operating in their professional capacity. We chose to accept the costs and risks when we raised our right hand. Compensation comes in many forms, but the rights of others isn't among them.

My brain is too fuzzy to recall the sources, but there are many very skilled boaters who can list the instances where a PFD not only wouldn't have saved a life, but that the wearing of one contributed to the loss of one. IIRC (and apologies if I don't) Evans Starzinger is not a fan of combining a PFD with a safety tether; A report I read last year specifically called into question the Spinlock PFD (which I wear) after it may have contributed to a racer's death when he went overboard; Just last month, I personally watched someone completely exhaust themselves trying to get back into a kayak because their life jacket was catching on the gunwale repeatedly and making re-boarding impossible. When I got close I told them to unzip the life jacket and try again while I spotted them - on the next try they were back in the kayak, and I reminded them to re-zip the jacket.

How and when to use a PFD seems to me to be one of the ultimate, basic demonstrations of why we have, and should insist on retaining, free will. There are times when the wearing of one will demonstrably improve one's chances of survival, and there are times when the wearing of one will demonstrably reduce the chances of one's survival. Whether a particular instance is 50%, 20%, or 90% is irrelevant and also the point: The Individual facing the specific instance is the only one in a position to decide what act gives them the single best chance to survive whatever it is they are facing.

So what does this have to do with the original discussion? Maybe this much:
As the person in charge of the craft you are responsible for the life and safety of EVERYONE on the craft. You may not own their right to choose, but you certainly owe them viable choices. Many of those aboard assume that, just by owning the thing, you have some knowledge and have given some forethought to protect THEIR well-being. If for no other reason, that means it is on you to make sure there is a serviceable PFD available for every one of them and to ensure that they know how and when to use it. People tend to fall off, sink and capsize tenders at least as often as they do big boats, so it seems like in many instances a "PFD for everyone" is probably even more important on the tender in some instances. Would I personally wear one to go from the Big Boat to the shore 100 yards away? Depends on the water temperature. Would a weak swimmer? Well, they certainly should and I would tell them so.

The individual user who doesn't want to hassle with the things or whatever? Well, while I may disagree with your judgement at times, or agree with it at others, I must by my word support your freedom to do as you feel best. I will add this though: Please keep in mind that there is more to the real-life equation than merely whether or not you are happy and feel safe. If you misjudge and things go awry, you may well be dead in less time than it takes a barista to make your morning latte. The poor bastards who have to risk life, limb, and sanity to come find you and face your loved-ones will carry it mostly hidden within them to the end of their days - assuming they survive the attempt to save you. It will cost them relationships, children, spouses, money, and physical health to name a few.

Choose wisely.

May be time for that latte.

The law says you have to have a PFD for everyone onboard. You don’t want to wear one that’s up to the Captain or Owner. They are the ones that gets sued in case of an unfortunate accident. Same as a person who uses a gun to protect themselves. You want total freedom then simply be prepared in case of an accident to be the one writing a check or filing bankruptcy. Your boat will be sold along with everything you own except your home and $20,000 in assets which include your furniture, car, computers, etc.

The laws are there to protect you. Are there times when things don’t go as expected. Certainly. I have an inflatable Life Jacket that is also a harness. I also have attached to it a knife and and PLB. If I am attached I can try to get back aboard I can cut the tether. If I do cut it my PLB sends out a distress signal.

As to your comment about politics. You were the one that brought up the 2nd Amendment? Which has nothing to do with PFD’s.

Benz · 12-03-2021, 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elzaar

It's too early and I'm light on coffee, but I'll make a few observations. I have 30 years LE experience including Harbor Patrol and lots in real Patrol. I also served in Combat Arms.

Why do so many discussions on boating seemingly have to turn political on this forum? There are forums here for political discussions, please use them if you are so inclined. I read the forums to learn and as a distraction. I was reading this one to get tips on PFDs while having my morning coffee.

I certainly empathize with those with PTSD. I have it. Pretty much all my friends have it. It's probably safe to say all of us have dealt with dead children resulting from various incidents - including drowning. Thanks so much for the reminders. I've buried at least 20 friends from gunshot wounds just on the LE side. It has never occurred to me to claim PTSD as a reason to take away the freedoms I swore to protect in two different Oaths. Nor do I support abolishing the 2nd Amendment. Destroying the Document I chose to commit my life to as a means of protecting myself or others who also chose to commit their lives to it would make the sacrifices all of us - the living and the dead - made, meaningless.

I appreciate the risks, personal costs, and terror that Search and Rescue, Firefighters, soldiers, and yes, even cops go through. But the Draft ended in about 1970. We do it because it is an Honor to Serve. Search and Rescue serve, just as Firefighters serve, to save people even at the risk of their own life. Probably more often than not to save people from the poor decisions those people made. It is an exceptionally honorable undertaking, and I salute anyone who does it.

But it doesn't trump the Individual Rights of people to have the freedom to make those decisions - whether they turn out to be good decisions or bad. The Bill of Rights carefully outlines the immutable rights of individuals. It doesn't say a single thing about the rights of public safety workers voluntarily operating in their professional capacity. We chose to accept the costs and risks when we raised our right hand. Compensation comes in many forms, but the rights of others isn't among them.

My brain is too fuzzy to recall the sources, but there are many very skilled boaters who can list the instances where a PFD not only wouldn't have saved a life, but that the wearing of one contributed to the loss of one. IIRC (and apologies if I don't) Evans Starzinger is not a fan of combining a PFD with a safety tether; A report I read last year specifically called into question the Spinlock PFD (which I wear) after it may have contributed to a racer's death when he went overboard; Just last month, I personally watched someone completely exhaust themselves trying to get back into a kayak because their life jacket was catching on the gunwale repeatedly and making re-boarding impossible. When I got close I told them to unzip the life jacket and try again while I spotted them - on the next try they were back in the kayak, and I reminded them to re-zip the jacket.

How and when to use a PFD seems to me to be one of the ultimate, basic demonstrations of why we have, and should insist on retaining, free will. There are times when the wearing of one will demonstrably improve one's chances of survival, and there are times when the wearing of one will demonstrably reduce the chances of one's survival. Whether a particular instance is 50%, 20%, or 90% is irrelevant and also the point: The Individual facing the specific instance is the only one in a position to decide what act gives them the single best chance to survive whatever it is they are facing.

So what does this have to do with the original discussion? Maybe this much:
As the person in charge of the craft you are responsible for the life and safety of EVERYONE on the craft. You may not own their right to choose, but you certainly owe them viable choices. Many of those aboard assume that, just by owning the thing, you have some knowledge and have given some forethought to protect THEIR well-being. If for no other reason, that means it is on you to make sure there is a serviceable PFD available for every one of them and to ensure that they know how and when to use it. People tend to fall off, sink and capsize tenders at least as often as they do big boats, so it seems like in many instances a "PFD for everyone" is probably even more important on the tender in some instances. Would I personally wear one to go from the Big Boat to the shore 100 yards away? Depends on the water temperature. Would a weak swimmer? Well, they certainly should and I would tell them so.

The individual user who doesn't want to hassle with the things or whatever? Well, while I may disagree with your judgement at times, or agree with it at others, I must by my word support your freedom to do as you feel best. I will add this though: Please keep in mind that there is more to the real-life equation than merely whether or not you are happy and feel safe. If you misjudge and things go awry, you may well be dead in less time than it takes a barista to make your morning latte. The poor bastards who have to risk life, limb, and sanity to come find you and face your loved-ones will carry it mostly hidden within them to the end of their days - assuming they survive the attempt to save you. It will cost them relationships, children, spouses, money, and physical health to name a few.

Choose wisely.

May be time for that latte.

Thank you for this. Very well put.
I'll buy you a latte if ever we meet.

dfelsent · 12-03-2021, 18:24

I read a news report about a 70 year old man who drowned next to his big boat when his dinghy flipped. I do not want that.
I wear a pfd in my dinghy. (Mostly). But always carry one for each person.

This whole thing about rights and freedom is bs. It’s about saving your life and the others with you. Just like other public health regulations. Seat belts. Vaccines. And so on

The regulations are there to save lives.

If you want to drown go for it but don’t forget for one minute about your family and about the people who will deal with your body.

There is no need to dump that pain on anyone else.

Elzaar · 12-03-2021, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happ

The law says you have to have a PFD for everyone onboard. You don’t want to wear one that’s up to the Captain or Owner. They are the ones that gets sued in case of an unfortunate accident. Same as a person who uses a gun to protect themselves. You want total freedom then simply be prepared in case of an accident to be the one writing a check or filing bankruptcy. Your boat will be sold along with everything you own except your home and $20,000 in assets which include your furniture, car, computers, etc.

The laws are there to protect you. Are there times when things don’t go as expected. Certainly. I have an inflatable Life Jacket that is also a harness. I also have attached to it a knife and and PLB. If I am attached I can try to get back aboard I can cut the tether. If I do cut it my PLB sends out a distress signal.

As to your comment about politics. You were the one that brought up the 2nd Amendment? Which has nothing to do with PFD’s.

You are correct and I agree it is reasonable for the law to require you to make PFDs available. I even encourage people to wear them most of the time. I believe I said that. I also feel that your decisions on how to prepare for a MOB event with a tether are well thought out, prudent, and most to the point - specific to what YOU feel is best for your situation. You made your own decisions. I don't feel anyone else sitting at home is in a position to dictate to you where you MUST do something differently. Say I don't trust knives and convince a quorum of your local legislature that you are more likely to cut yourself with that knife than ever need it to cut a tether? Are there not completely protected hook shaped blades that will cut that tether while greatly minimizing the risk to other cuts? Shall we mandate you carry one of them or perhaps no knife at all? I have seen far more unintentional cuts and stabbings than I have seen people cutting a tether to rescue themselves. For that matter, what of your now unpiloted boat running into who knows what or who while you float idle in the bay? Had you not cut that tether because your PFD inflated, wouldn't you have gotten back on board? To use the jargon, "BUT FOR your actions, my client would be able to walk today. Sadly, your boat ran over him as he swam at the beach with his family."

Certainly, being sued is a risk on the one hand. I don't believe the potential for being sued personally is a meaningful argument when it comes to these types of issues, in part because of what I just described. You can be sued for anything. It happens, but rarely. Again, my personal choice is to carry sufficient insurance that in the event an unfortunate accident does occur, I can do everything possible personally to make it right. Since my response was tailored to whether a particular individual should be forced to wear a PFD, the threat of a personal lawsuit seems slim indeed. People can be and are sued for things all the time. You risk a lawsuit every time you sit behind the wheel of an automobile, and yet I am confident most of us still do so. If the delivery driver slips on your porch you may be sued, but most of us still order pizza and Amazon without a seconds thought. The risks on the other hand have to do with personal freedoms and the futures of all of us to live our lives mostly as we choose. I have been involved in more than one lawsuit. It is one of the frequent costs of a life in law enforcement and a tool used by the Courts to ensure that government always be mindful that the highest priority is protecting the rights of the individual - especially from the actions of government, its representatives, or organizations. I am quite familiar with the legal system on both the Civil side and the Criminal side.

My apologies if you felt the 2nd Amendment somehow made a response to a political response seem somehow more political. I included it to underscore that even though police officers (my experience base) are frequently the victims of gun violence, including many of my associates, I would not use that outcome as a justification to remove one of the Bill of Rights guaranteed to the general populace. I was attempting to use it as a more clear analogy and potentially more relate-able example to most, rather than using the potential chemical, physiological impacts first-responders suffer from responding to events most people will never experience or witness and that frankly are hard to describe. The guaranteed rights of the individual - even those some of us may or may not agree with in whole or in part - by law, take precedence over whatever we the first-responders may know to make us safest or healthiest. Police would certainly be safer if they could prone out every person and search them, their car, their home, but the Law says we cannot do that because the rights of that person take precedence. Similarly, we could make every rescue worker safer and unmarked if we simply told people they could not go out upon an unpredictable sea in a tiny boat for pleasure or profit. We don't though, because we recognize that the choices of the individual to enjoy life and to make a living belong to the individual and shall not be infringed upon by other individuals or most especially, people in the employ of government agencies. The Courts you indirectly mention are extremely clear on this. When you intrude on those rights you don't find yourself sued, you may find yourself in prison.

So anyway, I maintain that this discussion is best in another forum (and out of my sight unless I go looking for it or I get a PM and choose to reply) and in a sense that was the reason for my first response: To say that if someone wants a political discussion they should go to a proper place for it and don't expect to hear accolades. We are all individuals and entitled to our own beliefs. As a person with the requisite background and experience, I felt it was most appropriate that I reply to a person from a similar field with similar outcomes seeming to use those potential outcomes to justify limiting the personal freedoms of others - especially on something as relatively trivial as PFDs. I also felt the poster made a valid point that others might consider not from a legal standpoint, but from a fellow human standpoint - Our decisions as boaters have a very definable cost to the people who come to help us when things go awry. I read forum postings frequently, post questions, and occasionally reply if I feel I have anything especially useful. I rarely mention my background because it is almost never relevant to what I see as a joyous escape we all share - At least the DREAM of time on a sailboat. I would like to keep those two realities as far apart as possible.

A person wants to learn about Best Practices regarding PFDs on a tender (or boat). If they wanted the USCG requirement they could probably Google it. I assume they, like me, were curious what others did so they could form their own opinions and do what they feel is best.

On that note, I'm back to PFDs.

Benz · 13-03-2021, 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfelsent

I read a news report about a 70 year old man who drowned next to his big boat when his dinghy flipped. I do not want that.
I wear a pfd in my dinghy. (Mostly). But always carry one for each person.

This whole thing about rights and freedom is bs. It’s about saving your life and the others with you. Just like other public health regulations. Seat belts. Vaccines. And so on

The regulations are there to save lives.

If you want to drown go for it but don’t forget for one minute about your family and about the people who will deal with your body.

There is no need to dump that pain on anyone else.

By this logic I should never drive my car, because that is far, far more risky than sailing a boat and rowing a dinghy. In fact, I shouldn't even allow my children into a car! And there are times when I choose not to drive in certain places: Friday night in the big city? I don't think so. But I'm glad I have the freedom to decide whether to drive or not drive.
That's what's at stake here: my freedom to decide what danger I can tolerate, and yes, my freedom to decide whether to put my friends and relations through the sorrow of scraping me off the side of the road. Why should anyone else, even the most well-meaning, self-righteous snowflake, make that decision for me or them?

chrisr · 13-03-2021, 14:55

personally (and this is way off topic) i think society has the right to regulate behaviour that can lead to a cost for the society.

examples are helmets for bikes and seatbelts for cars. wearing these dramatically reduces road injuries and thus reduces hospital costs.

on the other hand lifejackets only save lives (not reduce injuries) and an adult should be able to risk his life if he so wishes. it's between him & his family

search & rescue is another thing altogether

cheers,