Occupancy of Boats

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by versace

Hey I was wondering how many people can comfortably live in a 25ft sail boat for weeks, maybe a catalina model, also how many for 30 ft?

It depends on your definition of comfort. I was talking to someone the other day who was looking for 45-50 for herself. Based on your budget, look into the strategies employed by the youth of the SV Pestilence.

As for showers, at most, a boat in that size range will have a wet room: the bathroom sink doubles as a handheld shower. Make sure you put the TP away before you start. Even this is not universal in the 25' range. Anyway, for the climes you are talking about, you can get away with solar showers in the cockpit, as long as you aren't where you can violate decency laws.

Originally Posted by versace

I'm looking online and 25ft boats are about 7-11k but 30ft boats jump to 30k, why the huge jump?

Boats increase exponentially. While individual results may vary, a 30 foot boat is likely to have more headroom, more room in the head and generally and more or bigger things: bigger tanks, an additional burner for the stove, etc.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by versace

So your saying an older boat is better for our purposes? And we can spend 12k in all

If you are going to spend very many nights underway, yes an older boat would be better.

In the early days of fiberglass boats designers held onto the idea of building racer/cruisers and cruiser/racers. Generally boats were expected to be able to do overnight races so there had to be a minimum number of berths that were acceptable underway. About 1970 give or take designs began swinging towards interiors that were more geared to creature comforts at anchor or moored to the dock. These boats were still usable by most cruisers because most cruisers were couples and there was usually one good seaberth aboard. For a couple most of the later boats are fine, but for a larger crew or a family most of them come up short on decent berths.

I focus on the berths because underway good sleep is a safety issue. Awkward or uncomfortable sleeping arrangements or berths where the on-watch person is constantly disturbing a sleeper means someone that will later be on-watch and responsible for the safety of the vessel and crew will be sleepy and prone to errors in judgement.

Looking at the route you have a 380nm leg, say that's 4 days, 3 nights, twice (once each way). I don't see any other legs more than a single overnight. Probably you would be fine with a boat not so well laid out.

On the other hand an older boat will be a lot cheaper, ie bigger for the bucks, not big mind you but bigger.


I am going to assume that $12k is what you have to buy and outfit. If you need to live on this too for the duration then the following discussion will not be valid.

With $12K you want to pay about $7k or $7.5k for the boat including taxes.

What is the bare minimum you need to make a go of this:

Replace the wire rigging on the boat, about $1500.

Compass,
depthsounder
Laptop with OpenCPN charting
GPS hockey puck for laptop
spare GPS with rudimentary built in maps
another GPS
Marine VHF radio
Solar panels
200 amp-hours of batteries
Regulator for panels.


Mainsail with 3 reefs (probably comes with 2, so spend $300-400 to have the 3rd added)
working jib (90-100%)
Small genoa (120-135%)
Nylon drifter. (get used)

Dinghy with oars. This is a harder problem than you would think. An inflatable dingy is the norm, but it doesn't row well. Buying a small motor (3-4hp) for it will set you back about $1000 new. You could build your own hard or folding dinghy for $500-1000 including oars. The best bet would be to buy a used inflatable that came with the small motor. Don't be tempted to use the ships outboard for this. If it gets stolen on the beach you are truely screwed. Don't be tempted to think that you can just tough if out with oars on the inflatable, that only works for very short distances or during very calm weather with no current.

100' of 1/4" anchor chain (high test/G40/G43) with 200' of 7/16" nylon rope for 25# main anchor (CQR, Bruce, Delta, these are older designs so they should be cheap used)
The boat will probably come with a Danforth or similar anchor with a boat length of chain. This will be your backup.
Chain stopper
At least 2 10" cleats on the boat and 1 at each corner of the stern.

8-10hp outboard
12 or 18 gal of fuel tankage (this should be good for 150-250nm motoring depending on seastate and how slow you are willing to motor.

Onboard water tankage of about 30gal

Buy the book: "Self-steering without a windvane: A comprehensive manual of natural and sheet-to-tiller steering systems" by Lee Woas. This book will set you back about $100, plus $50-100 for the equipment you may need to make but that is a far cry cheaper than buying an autopilot or windvane self-steering system.

Other books to buy:
The One-Minute Guide to the Nautical Rules of the Road by Charlie Wing
Piloting and Deadreckoning by H. H. Shufeldt et al
Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual by Don Casey

You will need to document the boat with the Coast Guard since you will be going "overseas" with it.





What don't you want:
Roller furling jib (increases the cost of the boat and is a potential money suck for repairs)
Wheel steering (increases the cost of the boat, if there's a problem it will be a lot more money to fix than a tiller and harder to rig for self-steering.)
Inboard engine (significant repairs will run you $1000-2000, you can buy a NEW outboard for $1800)

The following are several boats that would fit the bill, except for the inboard part. I would go with the Cal 28 which is probably the best bang for the buck and it has a new outboard. The downside is they are in VA/MD. The upside is you don't want to be heading out until October when the Hurricane season starts to abate. That gives you time to prep the boat, learn to sail some and start down the coast arriving back in Miami about the middle of November.

SAILBOAT CAL 29'
1968 Jensen (aka California) Cal 28 Sailboat
27' Cal Sailboat

[UNCIVILIZED]

Below are some real world thoughts/experiences to consider. Ideas which may sound harsh, or defeatist, but are meant rather to provide some insight as to the realities of life aboard a boat. Especially when it's done by several adults, as opposed to say, a family with younger kids.
Everything at sea, & in port, doesn't fall under the same "be nice"/Mary Poppins world, guidelines of this forum. So I'll play Devil's Advocate a little bit.

Some of what's not included about life aboard, are (and this list is very abridged) the stresses of; bad food @ odd hours, no privacy, odd & perpetual motion (plus, add in bad weather to this), dealing with new languages, odd & random officialdom rulings & rules, sea sickness + general sickness (in close quarters - how well do you deal with folks puking in your bed? or on you, repeatedly)...
- Plus, read the test "The bowmansunion.com introductory self-examination for beginning bowmen." BowmansUnion SailHead Magazine Extreme Sailing™
It's a fairly decent example of what life aboard, especially on a passage longer than 12hrs is like, whether you're a bowman or not. That, & it's kinda' hilarious to boot.

So, as to life onboard, & a few "thinks" on qualifying boats:
Realistically, for the length of time you're talking about, it's wise for each person to have their own, personal, all weather bunk. That way, regardless of how good anyone is at "living inside of their own head", each (crew) has a small, "private" space which they can chill in/retreat to. And such a thing really helps (people to get along), whether you're not feeling well due to weather, or just want some time to chill & or digest experiences etc.
Especially so long as said space is both respected, plus Nothing gets tossed into or stored in said space without it's owner's permission (each & every time things need stowing).

There's an old Cruising rule about whether or not to invite people to stay with you/cruise with you on your boat for more than a weekend. It's to imagine living (including; cooking, eating, bathing, sleeping, dressing, etc.) with them in your bedroom for an extended period. As such is pretty much the space & privacy as exists on a sailboat (less in reality: it's more on par with living in a walk in closet).

Also, if the budget figure you're quoting is a pool of joint funds, then it might actually be wise to simulate the above conditions first. Either all live together in a SMALL studio apartment, or something similar.
To include everyone staying in it for days at a time (as much as work commitments allow), without going outside for any reason. And remove/don't use any of the interior doors, especially the one on the bathroom. Just rig up curtains. As on a boat, doors really don't do anything to mask sounds & smells.

Plus, while you're trying out this living together thing, shut off all; internet, tv, phones, & other connections to the outside world aside from the radio. Movies are okay, but on a large laptop only.
Pretty much, you're trying to emulate life on a boat as much as possible. Which yes, from a land perspective, is a pain in the ass. But that's the reality. Especially when under sail, at anchor, or when the weather's bad.

So seeing if you can put up with one another in very close quarters could be a wise experiment. Particular, if the budget figure you're quoting is a pool of funds. As, if folks really wind up not being able to get along, say, a month into the trip, the strain of sorting things out fiscally could be rather heated, on top of everything else.

I wrote/included the above, as very rarely do you hear/read about personal space issues on boats; or crew arguments, & other common problems of daily life aboard. Whether it's In blogs, or other descriptions of life aboard. So perhaps, knowing of some of them will help to head off issues before they can arise. Including, adding to the criteria which go into choosing a boat.


PS: You're also welcome to add in "watch keeping" & other "reality" factors, to the simulated reality portion of the above, too. Like having "watches", where the person on watch, is in the kitchen, balancing on a cutting board atop a rolling pin, staring out the window for 6hrs @ a time, watching for helicopters & noting sitings in a log. While being arbitrarily hosed down with the kitchen sink dish sprayer & having to clean it up, & subjected to various settings of a large household fan. But getting to drop half of the metal household dishes & cutlery onto the floor twice per watch (to simulate shipboard noise & wake "off watch" crew).
Also, 1/2hr prior to the end of his/her watch, "go below" & wake Everyone "accidentally" with a flashlight, while looking for the next "watch keeper" to wake up, so they can dress for their "watch". That, & every 2hrs when on watch, go through the apartment, & wake everyone by shaking their bed as hard as possible, to simulate tacking, boat wakes, etc.


~ Enjoy :-)

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Below are some real world thoughts/experiences to consider. Ideas which may sound harsh, or defeatist, but are meant rather to provide some insight as to the realities of life aboard a boat. Especially when it's done by several adults, as opposed to say, a family with younger kids.
Everything at sea, & in port, doesn't fall under the same "be nice"/Mary Poppins world, guidelines of this forum. So I'll play Devil's Advocate a little bit.

Some of what's not included about life aboard, are (and this list is very abridged) the stresses of; bad food @ odd hours, no privacy, odd & perpetual motion (plus, add in bad weather to this), dealing with new languages, odd & random officialdom rulings & rules, sea sickness + general sickness (in close quarters - how well do you deal with folks puking in your bed? or on you, repeatedly)...
- Plus, read the test "The bowmansunion.com introductory self-examination for beginning bowmen." BowmansUnion SailHead Magazine Extreme Sailing™
It's a fairly decent example of what life aboard, especially on a passage longer than 12hrs is like, whether you're a bowman or not. That, & it's kinda' hilarious to boot.

So, as to life onboard, & a few "thinks" on qualifying boats:
Realistically, for the length of time you're talking about, it's wise for each person to have their own, personal, all weather bunk. That way, regardless of how good anyone is at "living inside of their own head", each (crew) has a small, "private" space which they can chill in/retreat to. And such a thing really helps (people to get along), whether you're not feeling well due to weather, or just want some time to chill & or digest experiences etc.
Especially so long as said space is both respected, plus Nothing gets tossed into or stored in said space without it's owner's permission (each & every time things need stowing).

There's an old Cruising rule about whether or not to invite people to stay with you/cruise with you on your boat for more than a weekend. It's to imagine living (including; cooking, eating, bathing, sleeping, dressing, etc.) with them in your bedroom for an extended period. As such is pretty much the space & privacy as exists on a sailboat (less in reality: it's more on par with living in a walk in closet).

Also, if the budget figure you're quoting is a pool of joint funds, then it might actually be wise to simulate the above conditions first. Either all live together in a SMALL studio apartment, or something similar.
To include everyone staying in it for days at a time (as much as work commitments allow), without going outside for any reason. And remove/don't use any of the interior doors, especially the one on the bathroom. Just rig up curtains. As on a boat, doors really don't do anything to mask sounds & smells.

Plus, while you're trying out this living together thing, shut off all; internet, tv, phones, & other connections to the outside world aside from the radio. Movies are okay, but on a large laptop only.
Pretty much, you're trying to emulate life on a boat as much as possible. Which yes, from a land perspective, is a pain in the ass. But that's the reality. Especially when under sail, at anchor, or when the weather's bad.

So seeing if you can put up with one another in very close quarters could be a wise experiment. Particular, if the budget figure you're quoting is a pool of funds. As, if folks really wind up not being able to get along, say, a month into the trip, the strain of sorting things out fiscally could be rather heated, on top of everything else.

I wrote/included the above, as very rarely do you hear/read about personal space issues on boats; or crew arguments, & other common problems of daily life aboard. Whether it's In blogs, or other descriptions of life aboard. So perhaps, knowing of some of them will help to head off issues before they can arise. Including, adding to the criteria which go into choosing a boat.


PS: You're also welcome to add in "watch keeping" & other "reality" factors, to the simulated reality portion of the above, too. Like having "watches", where the person on watch, is in the kitchen, balancing on a cutting board atop a rolling pin, staring out the window for 6hrs @ a time, watching for helicopters & noting sitings in a log. While being arbitrarily hosed down with the kitchen sink dish sprayer & having to clean it up, & subjected to various settings of a large household fan. But getting to drop half of the metal household dishes & cutlery onto the floor twice per watch (to simulate shipboard noise & wake "off watch" crew).
Also, 1/2hr prior to the end of his/her watch, "go below" & wake Everyone "accidentally" with a flashlight, while looking for the next "watch keeper" to wake up, so they can dress for their "watch". That, & every 2hrs when on watch, go through the apartment, & wake everyone by shaking their bed as hard as possible, to simulate tacking, boat wakes, etc.


~ Enjoy :-)

Nicely put, sir!

Ann

[colemj]

Forget about the boat for a moment and think about the trip you are planning. Miami-PR and back is 2,000 miles and you are planning to do this in a 25' boat in 2-3 months.

While it is physically doable, keep in mind that a lot of it is upwind and typically done outside of hurricane season when the winds are strong. Many people wait a month just to get a weather window for parts of this trip. A boat your size will probably average 4-5kts - you won't be spending too much time seeing the sights along the way. Your Bahamas experience will be mostly limited to hopping down the Exumas and maybe Long Island, and you probably won't be spending much time in the Southern Bahamas, T&C or Dominican Republic - the time you may spend will probably be waiting for a weather window to quickly hop off again. PR will just be a turn around and go back place - no exploring there.

And you should budget an extra $1,000 for official fees (clearance, departure, marina, payola, etc).

Personally, my recommendation would be to find your boat, grab your friends and spend the entire 2-3 months exploring the Bahamas. This country is very big and diverse and one can easily spend a couple of years playing around in it without getting bored. The trip won't require long passages upwind, and it can even all be done without any overnight passages at all. If you get into trouble with the boat, you can easily fly back to Miami for parts.

Mark

[versace]

We'd rather it be just us

[bobnlesley]

I know of 2 couples that shared a 26' or 27' boat for long term cruising, I think it was a Vega but am not sure.

We (2) spent 7- 11 months a year aboard an Albin Vega for seven years - UK to eastern-Mediterranean - and never felt the need for anything bigger. We only up-sized because Lesley felt the Vega was too liht to cross the Atlantic - I still think she was wrong, though will accept that it'd have been a less comfortable trip in the Vega.

I don't know the US boat-brands well enough to advise on specifics, but look for something with at least close to standing headroom - I'm only 5'9" which made that easier to achieve and one that has a permanent berth (forecabin) set-up; friends we met on similar sized boats often bemoaned the need to pack away the beding each morning and re-build it each night.

Don't worry about 'shower-rooms' on a small boat they'll never be any good and it'll take longer to mop/clean/dry it out than to have the showers; it'd just be wasted space; you're planning on warm areas (smart move) so a solar shower's all you need.

A couple of basic points on Cruising Boats, irrespective of size:

They host six for drinks, four for dinner, but ONLY sleep two; in 12 years cruising we have met only one boat with more than a single couple permanently living onboard that has sustained the fun/magic of sail-cruising for more than a few months.

Particularly where you're planning to cruise, you will 'live' in the cockpit, so provided that's a decent size (you need to be able to lie down comfortably - a great place to sleep on those hot/sticky nights) then how big/how many berths your boat has is an irrelevance.

The only times our 27-footer felt 'too small' was during extended periods of cold, wet weather; holed-up below decks for a week or more gets claustrophobic, but that was wintering in the Med, you'll not have that problem in the Bahamas.

You may take a little longer to get there than all the big-boy's yachts, but you'll enjoy the same sunsets for 1/10th of what they've spent, cross shallower banks than they can on the way and always be able to find/fit into a much more sheltered anchoring spot than they can when you get there too.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

SNIP….

I wrote/included the above, as very rarely do you hear/read about personal space issues on boats; or crew arguments, & other common problems of daily life aboard. Whether it's In blogs, or other descriptions of life aboard. So perhaps, knowing of some of them will help to head off issues before they can arise. Including, adding to the criteria which go into choosing a boat.

~ Enjoy :-)

I clipped the above, but everything you wrote was good and brings up good points for "friends" to consider. Close friends, lovers, spouses, may be used to the close quarters and "body contact, noises, and smells." But others, such as total strangers, not so close friends, and guests, may not like it. It is best to know that before being on a long voyage together on a small boat.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Versace,

Here are some links to a blog written by a CF member (his first name is Sumner) who has a small boat (26 feet long) that is not expensive and commonly known as a "trailer sailor" and is widely available in the USA, so relatively easy to find a used one on the market.

Sumner has recently completed a trip from Florida to the Bahamas. His blog has a very good "day by day" journal, with screen shots of his chart plotter, detailed notes on what he saw, experienced, and tried and used. His blog also has many pages of examples of what he and other small boat owners (of his type of boat) have done to "modify" and prepare their boats.

I read all of the pages on his trip reports and enjoyed it. He is a very good writer for details, so it is like being on a virtual trip with him, if you read the journal.

For anyone new to sailing offshore, who is considering doing so in a small boat in the Bahamas, I think this blog offers a lot of sage advice and practical experience in a way that is easy to read, well illustrated, and very helpful with tips and observations.

Here are the links:

Things to Consider Before Heading to the Bahamas in a Small Boat
http://1fatgmc.com/boat/mac-1/2015%2...onsider-1.html

MacGregor 26 Owner Modifications and Preparation
Macgregor 26S Index

2015 Bahama Trip Day by Day with Photos
http://1fatgmc.com/boat/mac-1/2015%2...p%20Index.html

[UNCIVILIZED]

On boats, the suggested Cal 29 has a lot of good points:
- 2 Big quarter berths, with space for lots of personal gear & actually 2 people who know each other well (a young couple)
- A big galley, if you have the interior with it running down the starboard side of the saloon.
- A big dinette
- Semi Roomy head, with space to add features & options
- Roomy V-berth
- Moderate amount of storage for spares
- Good sized cockpit
- Sails very well, including to weather
- Draft is good, even with fixed keel
- BIG cockpit locker(s)
- Room for a good diesel inboard, without it taking a lot of space

Downsides:
- No nav station
- Moderate amount of storage for ground tackle, & limited bow bouyancy to support same
- Cockpit locker in dire need of organization system
- Semi-limited load carrying ability. But such would be the case in most vessels this size.
- Limited tankage
- Limited dinghy storage options

There's more, but... the above tips on said design, are things which I picked up on on a 3+ week Great Lakes cruise. Half of the cruise had 3 men as crew; 6' & up, #200 - #260 each. And the other half of the cruise had 2 of these 3 onboard.
We never had personal space issues, or similar. However, we mostly harbor hopped between marinas, with maybe 1/4 of the time spent at anchor. No oevernight passages, or weather of any length.
This also allowed re-provisioning every few days, as needed. So I'd reckon that the above should give you a decent idea of the boat's cruising potential.
I'd call her a solid coastal cruiser, for 2-3. That, & the details which I covered about the design would likely make a decent list of key points to add to your own, personal list of boat design evaluation criteria.

IMO stuffing any more people in a boat of similar size for extended periods isn't really an option. Between; Crew, their personal gear, stores, boat spares, sails, ground tackle, & boat equipment, you run out of room fairly quickly on small/mid sized vessels @ a geometric rate as you add crew members.

When it comes to passage making speeds, you can/should compare the PHRF ratings of various boats under consideration. Also, there's LOADS of useful information @ www.BethandEvans.com Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger's website.

You can also visit the Atom website & blog, for tales & advice on crusing in small boats. Including boat rec's. Atom Voyages - Home
Ditto on EXCELLENT boat rec's & realistic cruising life depictions, & needed gear @ www.Mahina.com They even do professional boat rec's. In addition to teaching voyaging, amongst other things. And the male half of the couple sailead all over the S. Pacific for many years in an Albin Vega 27.

For tech spec's on boats, and schematics of their interior setups, visit www.Sailboatdata.com By chance, when looking for viable boats, I ran across a Pearson 34' PEARSON 33 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com which has 2 quarter berths, & 2 pilot berths.
The Cal 34's good on berths & ameneties as well, plus, you can find them in the $7-10k range. Plus, they both sail & carry good quantites of stores (read cruising loads & crews) Very well.

Also visit Good Old Boat, including their list of used gear sites. Plus their boat reviews. Ditto on Cruising world's "Classic Plastic" boat reviews. Which cover a lot of the early fiberglass boats, from the 60's through the early 80's. And of couse, I'd HIGHLY recommend that you become an expert in scrounging Quality used boat gear, as well as improvising on the cheap.

PS: These young men & women put together something along the lines of your dream, as best as I can figure anyway. A boat to go exploring in, jumping off from FL, with a crew of 4, IIRC. And Definitely on the cheap. Plus it's a good video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lwbHYOFD-4

[versace]

whats better cal 28 or catalina 27,28,29

[JPA Cate]

Guys, I really don't believe this "versace" is serious. Outta here for now. It is the pattern of provoking without meaningful response to gladly and freely given attempts to help that puts me off.

Ann

[versace]

Did you sleep enough last night? Maybe not eat enough today? Seriously what are you talking about?

[hellosailor]

Please don't let tis discourage you, but if you have to ask whether all boats have showers and toilets aboard...This trip could be a real train wreck unless ALL of you are incredibly flexible, resilient, and up for An Adventure.


You know all those wires that hold the mast up? That's called "standing rigging" and all the wires, and all the metal parts that connect them, actually fatigue and typically would be replaced every 10-20 years. Get caught in rough weather with rigging that should have been replaced, and now you get to find out if the SAR system can get you before the ocean kills you. Remember, you've going to be "out there".


So, again, not to discourage you, but at least one of you, and preferably all of you, should spend some time daysailing, some time learning about boats, and coming up the learning curve while you're still safely on land. It is all too easy to lose the boat--and the crew--when little things go wrong, and then the little things add up to become a disaster.


The keel may not be well attached (a number of boats are lost from keel failures), or the rudder and rudder shaft may have internal damage that is very hard to see (more losses, every year) and when you are looking for an inexpensive old boat...more likely to have problems. Even if you know boats, it is typical to hire a marine surveyor before the sale is completed, to get an expert (sometimes) opinion on these things.


By all means, GO FOR IT. Just realize that even a simple sailboat is a complicated machine, and once you are beyond swimming distance from the shore...it pays to know the machine you are trusting your lives to. Literally.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by versace

whats better cal 28 or catalina 27,28,29

Catalina 28 is a much newer boat which will put it out of reach financially. Also it has an inboard.

I can't find any references to a Catalina 29.

That leaves Cal 28 and Catalina 27.

Cal is laid out better for a larger crew. (I have been aboard but not sailed this particular model of Cal but have cruised extensively on a similar Cal and was very happy with the layout. It has comparatively more sail area and you will be able to sail it longer in light air before becoming so frustrated as to start the motor. The large flat deck provides good space to store a hard dinghy if that is what you get. Ballast is internal which means that in heavy groundings there is likely to be less damage to repair. Headroom is about 5'10". There seems to be more handholds moving thru the cabin which is a big plus in heavy weather.

Catalina is built slightly heavier (which implies stronger) and draws slightly less water which is a slight advantage sailing thru the Bahamas. There are a lot of these boats around and you are more likely to find one in decent shape for the money you have. There is a tall mast version that improves the sail area but not enough to catch up with the Cal and the fin is extended so it is deeper than the Cal. Ballast is external which means in a light grounding there is likely to be less damage to repair. Headroom is about 6'0" which is slightly more than the Cal. Having spent considerable time crusing on a Catalina 27 my big gripes were the incredibly narrow side decks which meant going forward in heavy weather was a trial and the limited handholds moving about the cabin.

On the whole I would prefer the Cal, but there are a lot more Catalinas available and they are certainly sturdy enough, one was sailed around the world.

Rememeber to help keep a handle on price and expenses:
Tiller steering
Outboard motor
No roller furling jibs.