Old/strong vs New/weak?

[BeneG]

Hello All,

To the point question with more deets below:

-Are there any new-ish builds that have thick/ sturdy hulls? Say within the range of 2005-2024 mark?


-When were the last years that manufactures over fibreglassed? I assume it was a tapering off over the course of a few years?

- is an older hull with a massive makeover/refit the only way to achieve this?

———————————————————————
Thoughts:

I’m an aspiring cruiser doing my due diligence in learning all there is to know.One day (hopefully by the end of year) I will be putting money into a cruiser and wondering if I am missing something?

From what I can tell, the consensus is old boats were over fibreglassed and are tanks and are more durable and newer boats are more cost effective and more lightly fibreglassed/ can’t take a beating as well. As one of the most common expression points to, grounding is inevitable, so seems to reason having the assurance of a sturdy hall is a feature that should make the top of the list- with that said I know there are trade offs with weight, price etc, and I know that all boats have their limitations, but I am the type of person that puts durability of a floating home before most everything else. I am also new to this world, so mistakes will be made and I want to learn without ending the journey prematurely.


It seems to me there is a market for newer comfort features with the beefiness of the older hulls. I assume folks would shell out more cash to have that assurance…am I missing something? Is there not newer boats that offer this?

Thanks in advance for your input,
-BeneG

[Don C L]

I am one of those who owns an older boat that had a rep for being "over-glassed," but for me "older" is from the 60s. 2005 is brand new by my book. I would say it is not as simple as old vs, new. I would consider builder and design more important. Do you want a heavier, more full keel boat or a higher performance design? Once you know what kind of boat you want then begin to look at the standards of different makes. You can find good and less-than-good boats in all designs. As you gain more experience your preferences in boats will likely change. But my first thought in reading your post was that you might be looking for a Hans Christian, but there are MANY other choices. Good luck!

[donradcliffe]

I would just note that a really beefy Swan 65 just dropped out of the Ocean Globe Race and sought refuge in the Falkland Islands when they developed 2 cracks in their hull. I had always considered them indestructible, but it just goes to show that you can break any boat if you try hard enough.

[thomm225]

I have one of those older boats, a 1974 Bristol 27, which is not only built like a tank but also sails like one.

It does handle groundings well even though they are few and far between since it only draws 4'.

In other words, if you want some performance, you may want a newer boat possibly with a fin keel.

With old boats, the hulls are thick and tough, but many times everything else is old/ancient.

Plus, many have small interiors.

Many sailors go for the strongest oceangoing old boat available, but in truth, something like a Catalina 36 would be a good boat for most.

Not as a first boat but as your cruising boat later.

I'm in the boatyard now, and there is a Catalina 36 on one side of me a few boats down and a Catalina 25 on the other.

The Catalina 25 would make a good first boat and move up to the 36 later. The 25 also has a swing keel.

[A la carte]

Agree with Don CL, "...I would say it is not as simple as old vs, new. I would consider builder and design more important..." The design goal has much to do with the strength needed and the method of construction.

I was pleased to find that The Voyager's Handbook: The Essential Guide to Blue Water Cruising by Beth Leonard, has a good section on choosing a Bluewater capable yacht. The author identifies traditional voyagers, performance cruisers, racing cruisers, and so on. All have advantages and disadvantages, and some need to be stronger than others because of the way they're rigged. There really ARE tradeoffs for design goals that are much more involved than simply "over-glassed" or "new vs old".

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I have one of those older boats, a 1974 Bristol 27, which is not only built like a tank but also sails like one.

It does handle groundings well even though they are few and far between since it only draws 4'.

In other words, if you want some performance, you may want a newer boat possibly with a fin keel.

With old boats, the hulls are thick and tough, but many times everything else is old/ancient.

Plus, many have small interiors.

Many sailors go for the strongest oceangoing old boat available, but in truth, something like a Catalina 36 would be a good boat for most.

Not as a first boat but as your cruising boat later.

I'm in the boatyard now, and there is a Catalina 36 on one side of me a few boats down and a Catalina 25 on the other.

The Catalina 25 would make a good first boat and move up to the 36 later. The 25 also has a swing keel.

Btw the Catalina 25 is for sale for $4,000.

Again, it just shows you there is no need to overspend in your first few years of sailing / cruising.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by BeneG

From what I can tell, the consensus is old boats were over fibreglassed and are tanks and are more durable and newer boats are more cost effective and more lightly fibreglassed/ can’t take a beating as well.

Says whom?

That weight is going to cost you in performance.

Originally Posted by BeneG

As one of the most common expression points to, grounding is inevitable, so seems to reason having the assurance of a sturdy hull is a feature that should make the top of the list.

You mean like a long keel, make lots of them now don't they. Can't remember when I last saw a long keeled yacht at a boat show.

Originally Posted by BeneG

It seems to me there is a market for newer comfort features with the beefiness of the older hulls. I assume folks would shell out more cash to have that assurance…am I missing something? BeneG

People want nice spacious interiors it is their home rather than a battle ship that is never going to be sailed routes out of season, because people just don't. They want a fun, fast yacht that is a pleasure to sail.

Were are you thinking of going? Very few yachts are crossing oceans at any one time and many of them today are fin keeled run of the mill yachts doing just nicely.

Pete

[sandy stone]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

a really beefy Swan 65 just dropped out of the Ocean Globe Race and sought refuge in the Falkland Islands when they developed 2 cracks in their hull.

(!!!)

[Kettlewell]

Pure hull strength is not a function of old vs. new. For example, if you are really concerned about strength get a steel or aluminum boat that will sail right through the hull of any fiberglass boat. I used to own a plywood/epoxy cat built in the '80s, with hull sides about 1/2" thick. A large, modern cat dragged into us in a thunderstorm and our cat knocked a big hole in his fiberglass hull. In any case, bottom line is that many factors go into making a good cruising sailboat. Start with the type of sailing you intend to do, then look what is affordable, then go with a good design by a known manufacturer or custom builder, then start to look at condition and how she was maintained. If you're going to the Arctic or the Antarctic, maybe steel or aluminum is needed, but for the usual cruiser's milk run any decent production boat is plenty strong enough.

[wholybee]

Thick overbuilt fiberglass doesn't have any give to it. So when overstressed it will crack and break. A well engineered boat is thick where it needs to be, and has give where give is useful. A boat pounding through heavy seas will benefit form some flexibility.

That doesn't mean that all lightly built newer boats are bluewater boats. But don't write off a boat for a thinner hull if it isn't warranted.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Thick overbuilt fiberglass doesn't have any give to it. So when overstressed it will crack and break. A well engineered boat is thick where it needs to be, and has give where give is useful. A boat pounding through heavy seas will benefit form some flexibility.

That doesn't mean that all lightly built newer boats are bluewater boats. But don't write off a boat for a thinner hull if it isn't warranted.

I'm not so sure about a thick boat cracking under stress.

I was ready to get rid of my Bristol 27 a month or so after I bought it.

I came in and tied it loosely to the end of the dock then drove the 70 miles home.

A storm came through the area a day later, and the boat pounded into the dock all through it. The marina owner said he tried to tie it better but couldn't get to the boat due to high water.

When I arrived back there a few days later I saw where a piling that was against the boat had maybe been sheered flat on one side by 1/5 it's width.

My boat did that going up and down with the tide and the winds.

The boat had zero cracks

[JPK]

As others have rightly pointed out, the thickness of the fiberglass in the hull isn't a great indicator of a boat's overall strength. Taking current fin-keeled boats for example, I'd be much more concerned about how the keel is attached to the hull. On the more mass-produced boats like Beneteau/Jeanneau/Hanse the keel is bolted to a fiberglass grid that is bonded to the hull. A hard grounding won't necessarily result in the hull breaking or taking on water but it will either partially or fully delaminate the grid from the hull, resulting in a very involved and expensive repair. If you want to see what that entails, go search for the "Sailing Aurora" Youtube channel and watch what they had to go through when their Hanse suffered a grounding. Then contrast that to how X-Yachts (for example) attach their keels, using a steel grid.

[MicHughV]

Some years ago (1992) I went down to the Miami/Homestead area after hurricane Andrew had passed thru'.

There was barge after barge after barge loaded with sailboats that had sunk, all makes and models. They were stacked like cordwood on the barges after having been fished out of the water by a crane. Countless sailboats has been impaled on pilings, others bashed by other boats, bulkheads, docks, etc, etc.

I was able to get a close up look at these hulls, and across the board, whether the hull was cored or solid, seemed to make little difference to the impact damage I saw.

Somewhere in my stash of photographs I have several photo's of this carnage. I had an interest in this as my career is that of a structural marine engineer.

I had also built my own boat out of steel by this time and was glad I had done so. Over the years, I've had a few notable impacts to my boat that would have sunk most any other boat, but barely scratched the paint on my hull.

100's if not 1,000's of fiberglass boats have done rtw trips and other open ocean voyages without a problem. Keep the boat safe from impact, would seem to be the key.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I would just note that a really beefy Swan 65 just dropped out of the Ocean Globe Race and sought refuge in the Falkland Islands when they developed 2 cracks in their hull. I had always considered them indestructible, but it just goes to show that you can break any boat if you try hard enough.

Indeed.


Ocean Globe Race IRC* leader, “Translated 9" has been forced to divert to the Falkland Islands, after the Swan 65 suffered hull damage.
The Italian team says one crack is minor, while the other, close to the rudder skeg, in the aft cabin, is “vulnerable to serious damage”. The hull laminate is torn and flexing.
Repairs have previously been carried out , to a crack in the hull, during the layover in Auckland, ahead of the start of
Leg 3.
More ➥ https://www.pbo.co.uk/news/hull-dama...rce=SmartBrief

Video ➥ https://youtu.be/dcCdeXk6avo

Race Timeline [note how many nodes are damage reports] ➥ https://oceangloberace.com/race-timeline/

See also:
Fifteen round Cape Horn in a week! ➥ https://www.yachtingworld.com/all-la...rce=SmartBrief


* The IRC handicap is a method of rating different boat designs, based on their physical measurements, allowing them to race together.
➥ https://ircrating.org/irc-certificate/what-is-irc/

[sandy stone]

To me, the Swan 65 has always been THE boat you wanted for bad conditions, if you had the crew to handle it. For example, check out the Swan 65 ketch at about 12:27 in this video of the start of last year's Fastnet Race. Compare its powerful, deliberate progress to windward to the other boats' bouncing and flailing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UL8nyjs7r4