Orca attacks off Norway, moving 3,000 miles. Learnt behaviour?

[oceane]

Captain Paul Watson, recently had a suggestions and question about these orcas...
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02Rvnv9JnAYWbnreRocKyLFd 9oJvkCzvqmtotm6dMGpDLqqmaKtPFxmpicTu92DdQEl&id=100 044348739954

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by volksbar

if you turn the sonar off, after they found you, its obviously too late.
if you turn it off once entering deep waters, where it is no longer needed - chances that they find you diminish tremendously - as sonars can be attributed as kind of a "dinner bell"

Have a look at the choke point for Gib, perfect ambush location for them. Same with Faro, a huge yacht stop over location. They aren't doing this because they are starving, they are doing it for fun now that catch limits on Tuna and increased the available food supply over the last few years. It means they have time to go and play.

Problem with turning the sonar off is you are then limited to the deep water. Think I would prefer to be >50m off the shore with the sounder on and hope to loose the boats noise in the back ground sounds.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by keithhe

I don’t think anyone has any idea why these orcas are doing what they are doing. They have a history of some very odd behavior like in the Pacific NW in the 1980’s a pod started swimming around with dead salmon on their heads. This was quite the fad and caught on all summer. Then it stopped as quickly as it started. Maybe dead salmon hats went out of vogue.
I’ve read a LOT of speculation on here from accidental injury on Gladis to depth sounder causing this. I think all of that speculation is a waste of time, since they aren’t talking.
What is more beneficial is possible deterrents that don’t involve harming them. As bad as the rudder damage has been and yes several boats were sunk because of this, I don’t feel like they are actually trying to harm the people. They are more than powerful enough to destroy a fiberglass boat, but they haven’t. They seem to be going after the slow boats (sail) perhaps because it’s just easier.
Not brought up on this thread is that there are several groups collecting data on these attacks down to color of bottom paint. Perhaps that may eventually help pinpoint a cause, but I doubt it. At least it helps with locations of the pods.
What I have read with interest is what some have done during these “attacks” that made them stop. All have to do with noise. One guy used his air horn held against the inside of his hull creating effectively a huge speaker and they quickly left. Another banging on a piece of pipe with one end in the water with a hammer and that too worked. These are very auditory beings and I think the deterrent is noise they don’t like in reaction to approach or “attack”.

I also think the best solution is to scare them away with noise.
It would seem to me that people who study Orcas and other whales would already know what sounds Orcas dislike.

[Kurlie1]

Interesting comment in post #5 re use of sand.
Surely this could give us a clue to design some deflecting device similar to radar reflectors that could be deployed on lanyard astern to deter their interest ,, no?

[s/v Jedi]

It seems obvious to me that wales are all in a bad shape. Besides these attacks, the number of beachings of dead as well as alive whales is very high.

Looking at what can cause this, the wind generator parks at sea are #1 suspect with their vibrations. Of course we rather discuss limiting where sailboats can go than fixing the damaging effects of those abominations at sea

[NYSail]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Common knowledge?

We are not that bright.

Their disadvantage is they don’t have thumbs or wood.

Or wood?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I am not surprised they only attack NATO countries

Jedi may be on to something!

A beluga whale, named ‘Hvaldimir’ [aka: ‘Hvaldi’], that turned up in Norway, wearing a harness, in 2019, prompting speculation it was a spy, trained by the Russian army/navy, has [In May, of this year] reappeared in Hunnebostrand, off Sweden’s south-western coast.

First discovered in Norway’s far northern region of Finnmark, the whale spent more than three years, slowly moving down the top half of the Norwegian coastline, before suddenly speeding up, in recent months, to cover the second half, and move on to Sweden.

When ‘Hvaldimir’ first appeared in the Norwegian Arctic, marine biologists removed a human-made harness from him. The harness had a mount suited for an action camera and the words “Equipment St Petersburg”, printed on the plastic clasps; prompting some to speculate, that he could be a Russian spy. Moscow had no comment.

More ➥ https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...eatest-danger/

[GordMay]

Orcas are ramming into boats, but experts warn against calling it revenge on humans
Orca behaviour must be separated from human behaviour, researcher says
More ➥ https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...tion-1.6895465

[pbmaise]

Instead of sand, since rice sinks carrying some extra rice would provide both food security and possible sonar confusion.

[Juggerknot]

Originally Posted by AA3JY

Interesting use of sand as a defense..

“Bags of sand are now being carried aboard after hundreds of boats were damaged in the Strait and three sunk in the last three years, normally through headbutting the rudder to its destruction. Sand, when sprinkled in the water pre- or mid-attack, is said to confuse the cetacean sonar system and a few kilograms dropped overboard to create an “acoustic mirror effect”.”

M115A2 simulator is more effective and takes up less space =)

[sogood]

Originally Posted by cupofjoe

Adaptability is a key marker for intelligence, and we are the most adaptable species on the planet. Corvids and chimpanzees are next.

There is a pod on the brink of starvation because they cannot adapt to hunt new prey, and will only eat salmon. I think that speaks for itself.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ative-american

But how do you define intelligence? Sure, humans like to think that we are the brightest most highly developed species on the planet, with the greatest degree of intelligence. But what do we do with that intelligence? We're relative newcomers, having spent the shortest amount of time on the planet, yet having the greatest detrimental effect to the planet. No mouse ever made a mouse trap.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by cuthbert

This is really the sort of thing Rupert Sheldrake investigates. Morphic Resonance or Telepathy, interesting stuff.

Maybe there is some way to paint or taint the rudder to emulate some small sea creature that is undesirable/unpleasant and thereby deter the orca.

Or maybe a return to thinking/design used in some the older boats that would have a cockpit/interior table which could be rigged as an emergency rudder.

I was rather hoping someone would mention Rupert Sheldrake, yes, interesting stuff from the mild mannered scientist.
What if they’re trying to warn us? A sort of
“ So long and thanks for all the fish”

[pbmaise]

I regularly post on Wikipedia and found the article on Orcas made no mention of this new problem.

I updated the Wikipedia page as follows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca#O..._small_vessels

Orca attacks on sailboats and small vessels
Beginning around 2020 one or more pods of orcas began to attack sailing vessels off the Southern tip of Europe and a few were sunk. At least 15 interactions between orcas and boats off the Iberian coast were reported in 2020.[213] As many as 250 vessel have been damaged between 2020 and 2023.[214] In one widely circulated video, an orca can be seen biting on one of the two rudders ripped from a catamaran near Gibraltar. The captain of the vessel reported this was the second attack on a vessel under his command and the orcas focused on the rudders. "Looks like they knew exactly what they are doing. They didn't touch anything else."[215] After an orca repeatedly rammed a vessel off the coast of Norway 2023, there is a concern the behavior is spreading to other areas.[216] This has led to recommendations that sailors now carry bags of sand. Dropping sand into the water near the rudder is thought to confuse the sonar signal.[217]

If you contribute to Wikipedia too by all means update the paragraph. Just be sure to use good sources. I think some editors who review changes are not very happy to document this problem.

[pbmaise]

I just updated Wikipedia when I found a better source saying there have been 500 attacks on vessels not 250.

I also found interactive maps tracking attacks at

https://www.orcaiberica.org/en/inter...es-registradas

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by sogood

But how do you define intelligence? Sure, humans like to think that we are the brightest most highly developed species on the planet, with the greatest degree of intelligence. But what do we do with that intelligence? We're relative newcomers, having spent the shortest amount of time on the planet, yet having the greatest detrimental effect to the planet. No mouse ever made a mouse trap.

Intelligence is hard to define, and can mean different things to different people.

Intelligence has many forms, and has been defined in many ways:
- Higher level abilities; such as abstract reasoning, mental representation, problem solving, and decision making. Analytical intelligence, also referred to as componential intelligence, refers to intelligence that is applied to analyze, or evaluate problems, and arrive at solutions. This is what a traditional Binet-Simon, Stanford-Binet, or Wechsler IQ tests measure.
- The ability to learn, or the ability to acquire, and apply, knowledge, and skills.
- Fluid intelligence is the ability to problem solve, in novel situations, without referencing prior knowledge, but rather through the use of logic, and abstract thinking. Fluid intelligence can be applied to any novel problem, because no specific prior knowledge is required.
- Crystallized intelligence refers to the use of previously-acquired knowledge, such as specific facts learned in school or specific motor skills or muscle memory
- Emotional knowledge, and creativity. Creative intelligence is the ability to go beyond what is given, to create novel, and interesting, ideas. This type of intelligence involves imagination, innovation, and problem-solving. The four key components of emotional Intelligence are
(i) self-awareness,
(ii) self-management,
(iii) social awareness, (iv) relationship management.
- Adaptation, to meet the demands of the environment, effectively. Practical intelligence is the ability, that individuals use to solve problems faced in daily life, when a person finds the best fit, between themselves, and the demands of the environment.

In the book, “Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Our Own and Other People’s Minds”, Howard Gardner does a great job of defining intelligence, and helping us see new ways to look at, value, and develop our intelligence.
Gardner writes:
“... I define intelligence as a biopsychological potential to process specific forms of information in certain kinds of ways. Human beings have evolved diverse information-processing capacities — I term these ‘intelligences’ — that allow them to solve problems or to fashion products. To be considered ‘intelligent,’ these products and solutions must be valued in at least on culture or community.
The last assertion of ‘being valued’ is important. Rather than claiming that intelligence is the same in all times and places, I recognize that human beings value different skills and capacities at various times and under various circumstances.
Indeed, inventions like the printing press or the computer can alter, quite radically, the abilities that are deemed of importance (or no longer of importance) in a culture. And so individuals are not equally “smart” or “dumb” under all circumstances; rather they have different intelligences that may be variously cherished or disregarded under different circumstances. ...”


To sogood's point [#56]:

Intelligence might, also, be defined as the ability to solve complex problems, or make decisions, with outcomes benefitting the actor, and has evolved every in lifeform, to adapt to diverse environments, for their survival, and reproduction.

For animals, problem-solving and decision-making are functions of their nervous systems, including the brain, so intelligence is closely related to the nervous system.
Once we consider the origin and function of intelligence, from an evolutionary perspective, however, a few important principles emerge.
For example, different lifeforms can have very different types of intelligence because they have different evolutionary roots, and have adapted to different environments.
It is misleading, and meaningless, to try to order different animal species, on a linear intelligence scale, such as when trying to judge which dog breed is the smartest, or whether cats are smarter than dogs.
It is more important to understand how a particular form of intelligence evolved, for each species, and how this is reflected in their anatomy, and physiology.