Orca Rudder Attacks: Solution

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Just the idea of harming them deliberately to make the live of us yachties easier is disgusting beyond belief.
To me that includes flash bang or anything like that.

As sailors we need to treat the environment in which we are really just guests with as much respect as possible.

Hence my thoughts on tagging them to give them space (like at least 10nm around).
Tagging whales or other animals is an established procedure and not very harmful if done by professionals.

Sorry, I think your attitude towards an apex predator is naive.

Human lives are at risk and these particular rogue killer whales are learning that they can attack humans with impunity!

Yes they know humans are on-board and orcas have previously given boats a wide berth because they have been hurt by them when competing for fish.

I am all for reducing commercial fishing and cleaning up oceans of plastic particles, but you do need to establish a firm deterrent against attacks with these particular Orcas

I'd start with harmless seal bombs to train them to avoid boats . Failing that, cull out the aggressive ones.

If this was a rogue shark attacking surfers on purpose, it would be killed immediately.

Just think if these killer whales learned to accept the taste of humans.
The beaches could become interesting

https://youtu.be/AtF3FPyRVIw

[double u]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Just the idea of harming them deliberately to make the live of us yachties easier is disgusting beyond belief.
To me that includes flash bang or anything like that.

As sailors we need to treat the environment in which we are really just guests with as much respect as possible.

Hence my thoughts on tagging them to give them space (like at least 10nm around).
Tagging whales or other animals is an established procedure and not very harmful if done by professionals.

relax Franziska, neither lions, wolves nor sabretooth-tigers are allowed to roam the German countryside freely...
& numbering 8.000.000.000 - we are hardly "guests" any more...

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Hence my thoughts on tagging them to give them space (like at least 10nm around).
Tagging whales or other animals is an established procedure and not very harmful if done by professionals.

How would a boat know where these animals are?

Would you use AIS?

How would a sailboat that moves at five or eight knots avoid an Orca that can swim at 30 miles an hour/48 kilometers an hour for short periods?
How would you recharge the batteries so it can put out a continuous signal?
How would you arrange for an antenna to remain on the surface so the signal can be received by a vessel?

While I appreciate the thought behind this, I just don't see it as being practical.

Orcas use sound, so perhaps a sound generated by a vessel would be enough to deter them. It would have to be quiet enough so as not to travel far but of a pitch to make them want to stay away. The down side to this is that we might not have the dolphins playing with us. On the other hand, if it was only used off the Iberian Peninsula then that might be acceptable.

[Rubicon King]

Originally Posted by double u

...I'm surprised nobody has started shooting at the attacking animals. After all these attacks are potentially lifethreatening.
(or maybe somebody has, but keeps quiet about it...)

I know what I would do. Turn them into sushi, if I couldn't get them stopped humanely

[Poey50]

Rather than dwell on causes, motives, and ethics it seems a better idea to focus on solutions. It is not necessary to understand a problem to find a solution. There are two that I am aware of. The first is 'playing dead' and this seems to be the official advice but not alway successful. More intriguingly and with greater promise is 'slow reversing'.

Here is a short video of a second verified incident of 'slow reversing' as a successful solution. This time with an inflatable dinghy towed from the bow. You can get a sense of the speed of reversing.

This is what they describe as the video itself has no words. Interestingly, I found this in the comments section of another video in the same location (Sines, Portugal) in which damage had been sustained. if it was the same pod - which seems likely - then it does suggest that the slow reverse solution has merit in protecting the rudder against a group that is otherwise willing to attack.

"We were attacked by two killer whales ... (4 or 5 miles southwest of Sines) in early September this year [2021]. We were traveling on a 33 foot sailboat and the way we managed to defend our rudder was to launch a dinghy in the bow and motoring slowly aft. The orcas spent 80% of their time attacking our dinghy and when they came to our helm, they were forced to attack it from the bow side, which was less comfortable for them because they need to avoid of the keel and propeller. The attack lasted 2 and a half hours and only caused damage to the dinghy."

Edit: I've just been in touch with the owner. He (@vitrodful on YouTube) had not heard of the slow reverse method being used before or since. They just figured out that it could work as they were aware that orcas would prefer to attack from the rear. Quick thinking guys!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QggNKXhWVkc

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rubicon King

I know what I would do. Turn them into sushi, if I couldn't get them stopped humanely

I think we’d be shooting the wrong idiot

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by double u

relax Franziska, neither lions, wolves nor sabretooth-tigers are allowed to roam the German countryside freely...
& numbering 8.000.000.000 - we are hardly "guests" any more...

We are guests on the sea , badly equipped ones at that.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Poey50

Rather than dwell on causes, motives, and ethics it seems a better idea to focus on solutions. It is not necessary to understand a problem to find a solution.

Here is a short video of a second verified incident of 'slow reversing' as a successful solution. This time with an inflatable dinghy towed from the bow. You can get a sense of the speed of reversing.

The orcas spent 80% of their time attacking our dinghy and when they came to our helm, they were forced to attack it from the bow side, which was less comfortable for them because they need to avoid of the keel and propeller. The attack lasted 2 and a half hours and only caused damage to the dinghy."

This is very interesting. There were some suggestions that the rudder represented something but in this case it seems they were content to attack the dinghy, which looks nothing like the rudder.

While I agree that we can find solutions without knowing the cause, I will say that knowing the cause may help. For example, if they are just playing, then it may be possible to let them play with something other than the rudder. Regardless, this is very helpful since it offers a possible solution.

Questions:
Would towing a dinghy from the stern yield the same result?
Will a transom hung rudder or a skeg hung rudder deter Orcas more than a spade hung rudder when moving in reverse?
Have the Orcas attacked just spade rudders or the other style rudders too?
Thanks for posting this video.

[goboatingnow]

I think the orcas have been reading the long keel threads here !! They’ve taken sides.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

How would a boat know where these animals are?

Would you use AIS?

How would a sailboat that moves at five or eight knots avoid an Orca that can swim at 30 miles an hour/48 kilometers an hour for short periods?
How would you recharge the batteries so it can put out a continuous signal?
How would you arrange for an antenna to remain on the surface so the signal can be received by a vessel?

While I appreciate the thought behind this, I just don't see it as being practical.

Orcas use sound, so perhaps a sound generated by a vessel would be enough to deter them. It would have to be quiet enough so as not to travel far but of a pitch to make them want to stay away. The down side to this is that we might not have the dolphins playing with us. On the other hand, if it was only used off the Iberian Peninsula then that might be acceptable.

Dave, read my last few posts. While AIS would be nice it won't happen and I wrote that already.
Tagging is done frequently on wild animals. Dolphins and whales, and Orcas, have been tagged in the past for research.
The sat signal is sent when they are on the surface, which they are. These are mammals and need to be breathe oxygen on a regular basis.
Having a pressure sensor linked to the sender it triggers the sender activation when surfacing.

The advantage is that an online map which one can consult before leaving port is much more accurate/more often updated than if it's just based on incidents.

The Orcas are following the tuna. The tuna is apparently close to Gibraltar in spring and moves more and more towards Galicia in autumn. So the researchers could predict more precisely the current location and general direction of the Orca pod.

That would perhaps allow to reduce the off limit zones.
Additionally the location and travel directions could perhaps be broadcast via Navtex too.

All this costs money, but that may be coming out of research funds, maritime safety funds and perhaps also to some degree the insurance industry as sponsors.

I simply do not like the idea to inflict harm on so highly intelligent species. I'm not a fan of using guns or the like either.
Very short distance underwater sound may be acceptable, but is definitely less preferable than giving them space.

Regarding them eventually attacking humans on beaches in the future, as someone mentioned.
That's than the clear result of our own actions like over fishing tuna in an industrial scale and/or directly harming the Orcas. We turned them than into our enemies.

I am not a fan of that happening, neither am I a fan of some of the gun wielding cowboys here in the thread and forum.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by double u

relax Franziska, neither lions, wolves nor sabretooth-tigers are allowed to roam the German countryside freely...
& numbering 8.000.000.000 - we are hardly "guests" any more...

Not entirely true.
Wolves are allowed, even here where I live. They are still a protected species.

While farmers have issues with that, which I do understand to some degree, there are so far no instances were humans have been unprovokingly attacked by them.

[Poey50]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

Questions:
Would towing a dinghy from the stern yield the same result?
Will a transom hung rudder or a skeg hung rudder deter Orcas more than a spade hung rudder when moving in reverse?
Have the Orcas attacked just spade rudders or the other style rudders too?
Thanks for posting this video.

Do note the explanation given by the crew I think it makes a lot of sense.

"...they were forced to attack it from the bow side, which was less comfortable for them because they need to avoid the keel and propeller."

Orcas just don't seem to have a reverse gear which they would need to successfully attack a rudder coming towards them rather than moving away.

[Franziska]

Still wondering what would happen if your boat has no appendages.

We can lift rudders, centerboard and motors completely out of the water, which by the way is helpful even in the event if rudder damage.

We can steer alone with the sails if not to close to shore
We can steer with the outboards
Wehave redundancy in motors and rudders
We can fix a rudder damage without lifting the boat

Did any of the attacks happen in bad weather?

[Rubicon King]

I love differing opinions, but we are no longer guests. We need to manage our presence and defend ourselves appropriately. and for the record I'd use a harpoon, not a gun. I'm not trying to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs, but to be submissive in a life threatening situation is what I would refer to as being a pansy.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

We are guests on the sea , badly equipped ones at that.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Dave, read my last few posts. While AIS would be nice it won't happen and I wrote that already.
Tagging is done frequently on wild animals. Dolphins and whales, and Orcas, have been tagged in the past for research.
The sat signal is sent when they are on the surface, which they are. These are mammals and need to be breathe oxygen on a regular basis.
Having a pressure sensor linked to the sender it triggers the sender activation when surfacing.

The advantage is that an online map which one can consult before leaving port is much more accurate/more often updated than if it's just based on incidents.

The Orcas are following the tuna. The tuna is apparently close to Gibraltar in spring and moves more and more towards Galicia in autumn. So the researchers could predict more precisely the current location and general direction of the Orca pod.

That would perhaps allow to reduce the off limit zones.
Additionally the location and travel directions could perhaps be broadcast via Navtex too.

All this costs money, but that may be coming out of research funds, maritime safety funds and perhaps also to some degree the insurance industry as sponsors.

I simply do not like the idea to inflict harm on so highly intelligent species. I'm not a fan of using guns or the like either.
Very short distance underwater sound may be acceptable, but is definitely less preferable than giving them space.

Regarding them eventually attacking humans on beaches in the future, as someone mentioned.
That's than the clear result of our own actions like over fishing tuna in an industrial scale and/or directly harming the Orcas. We turned them than into our enemies.

I am not a fan of that happening, neither am I a fan of some of the gun wielding cowboys here in the thread and forum.

While I admire your desire to help, nothing in this post is practical. It is not real time and in fact, is worse. Given the Orcas cruise at around eight or nine knots, by the time one checks their locations and get to sea, they could be many, many miles away, giving one a false sense of safety. Exclusion zones only work with fixed boundaries, not with things or creatures that move.

As far as us making them enemies, that is pure speculation and unlikely.

I too would like to see them being kept from harm, but at the same time one has a right to protect themselves. Hopefully we will eventually figure out something that works. Already there is a possible solution which is towing a dingy and moving in reverse once an attack starts. Maybe at some point we can even prevent attacks.